Water sample collected from Carrigain well

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Dr. Dasypodidae

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The old thread is closed, but thought that I should post the results of my water well sampling expedition to Carrigain yesterday. I began my hike with an "alpine" start at noontime, arriving at the controversial water well just below the summit about three hours later. I spent a lot of time on my way up surveying nearly all 38 individuals on their way down; none drank from the well. Results were fairly evenly split into the following three groups: 1) did not see the well, 2) saw the well, but noted the USFS non-potable sign, so would not consider drinking from it, and 3) would not consider drinking from the well even if the USFS non-potable sign were not in place. One person was preparing to camp on the summit and planned to filter and boil water from the well for supper. Unfortunately, my water sample may not be representative, as the heavy rain from Friday night raised the water level in the well to near the top, and there was obviously overflow recently. So, I doubt that the water in the well ever will be cleaner than it was when I sampled on Sunday afternoon. That said, if we measure a significant number of coliform bacteria colonies on our growth plates, I think that we can safely assume that the bacteria counts would be even greater most other times. On the other hand, if bacteria counts are minimal, I should probably make a return visit when the water level is lower, such as it apparently was this past summer. Please stay tuned.

Dr. D.
 
Rain, for better or worse?

I'm wondering if the bacterial contamination in the well could be worse after a heavy rain do to contaminated run off. I know rivers tend to have more contamination after heavy rain. I know... a river is not a well, just a thought. Buddy
 
More than anyone, I can't wait for the results! Thanks so much Dr. So far, the well drinking boyfriend is still A-OK!
 
My cross-examining lawyer brain...

is wondering whether you sampled the streams along the way? Wouldn't that be at least as useful information as the old well on top... ;)
 
Hey, great job, Dr. D! This can become an ongoing experiment, with follow-up, and actual scientific method (and EVERYTHING)! Both you & Gris mention taking other samples, and the surveying of hikers can provide both anecdotal and (eventually?) statistical data. Great stuff.
 
--M. said:
Hey, great job, Dr. D! This can become an ongoing experiment, with follow-up, and actual scientific method (and EVERYTHING)! Both you & Gris mention taking other samples, and the surveying of hikers can provide both anecdotal and (eventually?) statistical data. Great stuff.
Am I the only one who worries that if the good Dr. declares the water to be safe, that others will assume it is safe FROM NOW ON?
 
Tom Rankin said:
Am I the only one who worries that if the good Dr. declares the water to be safe, that others will assume it is safe FROM NOW ON?
Well, what do you think? Would you ignore a non-potable symbol and say "I read on the internet that this water is safe to drink..."? I have a feeling Thom will apply the standard disclaimers to the results of this little test.

This is pure Darwinism at work. If you choose not to filter the water you take from that source and you get sick, then you get what you deserve for being reckless. All it usually takes is one bout with Giardia or E. Coli poisoning (or worse) and people learn real quick that they should filter/treat all water that is potentially unsafe to drink.
 
Dr. D mentioned measuring coliform colonies on growth plates.

As far as I know Giardia testing is completely different, I did a quick Google search and found this:

Parasites
Testing for Giardia or Cryptosporidium (parasites) is not available at the State Public Health Laboratory. Parasite contamination of properly constructed and maintained deep wells is rare. Parasites such as Giardia and Cryptosporidium are typically associated with surface water sources (ponds, lakes, rivers, streams, etc.). Only wells that are under the direct influence of surface water are typically tested. Homeowners should attempt to rule out more common sources of parasite infections (human to human transmission, especially children attending schools or daycare; animal to human transmission; direct contact with surface waters, etc.).

This testing is very expensive (approximately $400 per sample) and has a low sensitivity rate.

Source: http://www.dhss.mo.gov/Lab/EnvBact/PrivateDrinkingWater.html
 
Tom Rankin said:
Am I the only one who worries that if the good Dr. declares the water to be safe, that others will assume it is safe FROM NOW ON?

Well, I have drank from the well twice and didn't get sick.

OH NO!! I just kicked off a flurry of people who are going to drink from the well... The horror!
 
albee said:
Well, what do you think? Would you ignore a non-potable symbol and say "I read on the internet that this water is safe to drink..."? I have a feeling Thom will apply the standard disclaimers to the results of this little test.
Maybe I have very little faith in humanity, but unfortunately, I think people *WILL IN FACT* do *EXACTLY* this! It doesn't matter what disclaimers he puts on it. What will get around is "it's been tested and it's ok". A lot of people drink water from spring pipes in the Catskills, and they really have no idea if it's safe, but that is the 'common wisdom' of the Catskills. Pipe=Safe.

But as Dennis Miller says, "That's just my opinion. I could be wrong." :D

albee said:
This is pure Darwinism at work. If you choose not to filter the water you take from that source and you get sick, then you get what you deserve for being reckless. All it usually takes is one bout with Giardia or E. Coli poisoning (or worse) and people learn real quick that they should filter/treat all water that is potentially unsafe to drink.
I agree with this part 100%! :D
 
Count me in as one that is very interested in the results. Bottom line, I'd drink the water from the well anyway, so I won't be influenced. But can we stop trying to hold everyone's hand and make sure that nobody does anything stupid at any time ever? I mean, so what if someone drinks bad water. You know what happens? They get sick, the go to the doctor, they get better. They may or moy not do the same thing again.

Posting the results of a test on the water in the well is a fact. What someone chooses to do with those facts is up to them as an individual. As long as the good Doctor D (mmm... Doctor...) doesn't say "Hey, everyone, go drink the water!" I don't see the problem.
 
I'm hooked, I can't wait to see the results. You got me interested. Great idea!
 
albee said:
This is pure Darwinism at work. If you choose not to filter the water you take from that source and you get sick, then you get what you deserve for being reckless. All it usually takes is one bout with Giardia or E. Coli poisoning (or worse) and people learn real quick that they should filter/treat all water that is potentially unsafe to drink.

Its not reckless, its a choice. While I know there is bad water out there, and I wouldn't want the USFS to promote free dirnking, I've been hiking and backpacking for 10 years and come across bad water exactly once. My personal experience tells me that the water issue, while real, is very overblown. Seems like more of a liability issue than a contamination issue. And having been there, i can tell you that, while its not pleasant, Giardia ain't all the bad. And the "cure" takes 5 days.
 
chomp said:
Its not reckless, its a choice. While I know there is bad water out there, and I wouldn't want the USFS to promote free dirnking, I've been hiking and backpacking for 10 years and come across bad water exactly once. My personal experience tells me that the water issue, while real, is very overblown. Seems like more of a liability issue than a contamination issue. And having been there, i can tell you that, while its not pleasant, Giardia ain't all the bad. And the "cure" takes 5 days.


That and even if you do drink contaminated water you still might not get sick according to This Site

"But perhaps the most telling statistic is that drinking heavily contaminated water resulted in symptoms of giardiasis in only 1 case in 9."

Ive drank from lots of streams all my life and I've never knowingly shown symptoms.. Tho its possible because you can contract it and not know for 4 weeks. Its a general discretion sort of deal, people have drank from streams for a long time. You'd think that according to Darwinism we'd all have an immunity :)
 
chomp said:
Its not reckless, its a choice. While I know there is bad water out there, and I wouldn't want the USFS to promote free dirnking, I've been hiking and backpacking for 10 years and come across bad water exactly once. My personal experience tells me that the water issue, while real, is very overblown. Seems like more of a liability issue than a contamination issue. And having been there, i can tell you that, while its not pleasant, Giardia ain't all the bad. And the "cure" takes 5 days.

Watch what you post, or some very conscious people might decide to create new laws that will force people to only drink bottled water when hiking... And they'll have the powerful Coca-cola (Dasani) and PepsiCo (Aquafina) to pay lobbyists, and they'll have the ignorant/paranoid/stupid people, which is the majority of electors, to approuve the law...
 
Dr. Dasypodidae is at it again. Using science to settle debate?!?!? Unthinkable!

Before long we'll have to use logic and tolerance of opinions... and then where will we be? Ass deep in grammar Nazis I tells ya!

No siree, don't like this one bit... :rolleyes:
 
marchowes said:
That and even if you do drink contaminated water you still might not get sick according to This Site

"But perhaps the most telling statistic is that drinking heavily contaminated water resulted in symptoms of giardiasis in only 1 case in 9."

Ive drank from lots of streams all my life and I've never knowingly shown symptoms.. Tho its possible because you can contract it and not know for 4 weeks. Its a general discretion sort of deal, people have drank from streams for a long time. You'd think that according to Darwinism we'd all have an immunity :)

Marc -

I've met the author of that article, Bob Rockwell, and his article is the subject of many discussions here in the Sierra. Bob remains a very active hiker and climber. His conclusions are his own, and many veteran Sierra hikers still treat the water they drink. Please keep in mind that in general, the Sierra sees but a fraction of the hikers of the WMNF, and the climate is vastly different. I doubt this thread will change many people's mind about whether or not to filter their water, however.

Personally, I hope to never contract giardia. It's my understanding that with treatment the symptoms can be controlled, but like some other diseases, you never are entirely free of it once you've contracted the illness.

Kevin
 
I am with Chomp! More overblown the paris hilton stolen tape.

Besides, not sure what people think of others here, but I think most of us have a mind of our own and are somewhat capable of making a choice to drink (or not) the water regardless. I regard the readers here with a higher intelligence than to go out and do everything the VFTT people say......

jeeeeezum crowe.....

That being said, thanks Dr D for the info.
 
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McRat said:
Dr. Dasypodidae is at it again. Using science to settle debate?!?!? Unthinkable!
Don't forget that the quality of a water source can change.

While Dr. D's results will be interesting, any conclusions that you draw from the current test results may not be correct in the future.

Kevin Rooney said:
Personally, I hope to never contract giardia. It's my understanding that with treatment the symptoms can be controlled, but like some other diseases, you never are entirely free of it once you've contracted the illness.
Been there, done that. Wasn't much fun...
(FWIW, my case was over 25 yrs ago. I've had no hints of any return since.)

I believe you can become free of it. It is an intestinal parasite and can be cleared from the digestive tract. You may be confusing this with the fact that one can be an asymptomatic carrier.

Here is a reasonable summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardia_lamblia

The CDC also has some info: http://0-www.cdc.gov.mill1.sjlibrary.org/ncidod/dpd/parasites/giardiasis/factsht_giardia.htm
NiH:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/giardiainfections.html

Doug
 
In case anyone would like some background on this little experiment, see this thread: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18225&highlight=carrigain

It is interesting to note the tone of the opinions in this thread compared to the other thread. (FYI: Last time the over-riding consensus was that drinking from that well is very ill-advised, no pun intended. Let's see where this thread goes!)
 
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