What are your views on Wolf reintroduction in Maine and ADKs??

[PhishADKhiker]

MONTPELIER, Vt. - In what environmentalists hailed as a major victory, a federal judge on Friday ordered the Bush administration to step up efforts to restore the gray wolf to Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and New York.

“The wolves are howlin’” in celebration, Patrick Parenteau, director of the environmental law clinic at Vermont Law School, said with a laugh. Parenteau, lead attorney in the case, said his students “did all the hard labor in the case. It's a nice victory for our students.”

Judge J. Garvan Murtha, sitting in the U.S. District Court for Vermont, found that the Department of the Interior violated federal law in 2003 when it issued a rule saying no further efforts to restore the wolf were needed.



Efforts to restore wolves had been successful in Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan's Upper Peninsula. The government wanted to lump those states in with the Northeast in a new, 21-state eastern region, and declare that enough had been done to restore wolf populations throughout the eastern United States.

No lumping allowed
But Murtha wrote that the Fish and Wildlife Service “simply cannot downlist or delist an area that it previously determined warrants an endangered listing because it ‘lumps together' a core population with a low to nonexistent population outside the core area.”

If the U.S. government had prevailed, Parenteau said, “the only wolves that would exist in the eastern United States would be those wolf populations in the upper Great Lakes. That's what the final rule (put out by the Fish and Wildlife Service) said and that's what we challenged.”

Environmental groups, including the National Wildlife Federation, Vermont Natural Resources Council, Maine Wolf Coalition, Environmental Advocates of New York and Maine Audubon Society, joined in the lawsuit.

They argued that good wolf habitats exist in northern Maine and in New York's Adirondack Mountains, and that northern Vermont and New Hampshire likely would become an important corridor for wolves migrating between those two habitats.

John Kostyack, lawyer for the National Wildlife Federation, called the ruling a “major victory for wolves and for all the people who care so much about preserving America's natural heritage.”
--------------------------------
Many of you have already seen this article circulating in almost every major newspaper, but i am looking for some follow up on the issue.

what is your opinion on this issue?

a common misconception is that wolves commonly attack livestock, which is hardly the case. The fact is that Wolves have little to no effect on cattle and livestock.

As for the interference with humans, i think the wolves can find a healthy niche in the Northern Maine woods as well, the northern region of the ADK park.

The problem is the half breed of wolf that already exists in this area. Would these pure bread wolves mate with the coywolf? That seems to be the issue.

I say hell with it, introduce them in N. Maine first, then if successful, Bring them to the ADK Park.

I am all for bringing the wolf back to its natural habitat.

imho, the wolf belongs in the great northeast woods...

Posts yoru thoughts on the matter.

 

[Barbarossa]

Cry wolf!

Are there wolves in S Quebec and New Brunswick? If so, it is just a matter of time before the packs push south. Besides, they will only kill livestock that large American predators are unwilling to kill

 

[TCD]

"...hell with it, introduce them in N. Maine first, then if successful, Bring them to the ADK Park."

And if that's successful, we'll bring them to Washington Park in Albany, so they can tear your dog apart.

Point being, these things need to be thought out. Just because an animal is furry, romantic, and was once a native of an area does not automatically mean that it fits today. The misbegotten attempt to reintroduce the Lynx is an example. Animals that fit find their own way in (like the Moose) without heavy handed and usually botched attempts to help by coutroom advocates.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I'm in favoring of encouraging the wolf to return to the ADKs as it's probably a matter of time before they'll re-populate on the own anyway. I'm quite sure I've seen a wolf in Maine (not too far from Millinocket) and others on this board have reported similar sightings. One animal that I believe should be actively re-introduced to the ADKs is the moose. A few have been spotted in the Plattsburg/Keene area IIRC, but that could be accelerated by trapping some from the northern NE states and moving 20-30 or more into the Adirondack Preserve. The forests there are prime moose habitat - mature forests, and would provide a natural counterpoint to the wolves.

 

[Artex]

I'm not up to speed on the possible negative impacts, but on the surface, there is something very alluring about wolves returning to the northeast. I'll remain open-minded on the issue, but still would love to see them in the wild someday.

 

[Hillwalker]

Wolfbane

Having recently owned a home and lived in Idaho I fear that what has happened there will eventually move east. At trail head kiosks in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming one often encounters this poster: See it, kill it, and don't say a word. This text is printed over an outline of a wolf. The reintroduction of wolves out there has created a lot of angry people. I consider myself a treehugger, however some things are best left alone. If the remaining wolf populations in eastern Canada have not moved back by themselves, then conditions are not right. Don't mess with Mother Nature. I now own a fairly remote property in the western Whites where the Eastern Coyotes are a real problem. Shall we compound that by creating an even larger hybrid? I vote no.

 

[snowshoe]

I think reintroducing the wolf is great idea. It is the least we can do. After all man killed them off and now look at the overpopulation of deer. Deer only pred is humans. At least if the wolf was back they can help with maintaining the deer population. I think there is plenty of food for the wolf. Look at the bald eagles they are doing well now so why cant the wolf.
As for livestock. There will be problems but no different than bears getting at livestock. You just have to take care of the problem ones.

 

[Rob S]

a common misconception is that wolves commonly attack livestock, which is hardly the case. The fact is that Wolves have little to no effect on cattle and livestock.

Didn't know that. After seeing many wolves up-close at the Lakota Wolf Preserve, I thought the opposite. In fact, maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I could have sworn that the guy at the preserve who gave the talk said that wolves will gladly take an easy kill like livestock over a hard kill. Anyone else know more about this? Shawn, FunkyFreddy, you guys recall any of that???

I like the idea of reintroducing the wolves. But I would hope that it's not done willy-nilly without planning and research.

There will be problems but no different than bears getting at livestock. You just have to take care of the problem ones.

I'm not so sure about that (no offense Shawn! ) but I hope you are right. Seems to me that if a wolf (or wolves) were to start feasting on a rancher's sheep or chickens, it would unfortunately create a lot of bad press for the wolf which in turn would likely cause a lot of gunfire at night on the rancher's properties. And this in turn may cause a domino effect of other unpleasant scenarios. Again, I may very well be incorrect in my thinking ..... I honestly hope I am because I like wolves (I even have a poster of one in my office).

I'm in favoring of encouraging the wolf to return to the ADKs as it's probably a matter of time before they'll re-populate on the own anyway.

I agree as that's sounds very logical. A gradual reintroduction by man would likely be similar to just "speeding up" nature's own process.

Don't mess with Mother Nature. I now own a fairly remote property in the western Whites where the Eastern Coyotes are a real problem.

I respect your point of view about messing with Mother Nature. But there are times when man's "interference" has done good, and both man and wildlife has benefited. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with the wolves since I honestly don't know. I wasn't aware of the coyote problems in the western Whites.

I'm no expert by any means, and my opinions may mean squat to everyone else, but with the little info I have so far, I think it's very cool and worth following the outcome. No disrespect intended to anyone else.

Rob

 

[funkyfreddy]

Don't mess with Mother Nature.

Hmmm... and the wanton killing of wolves, mountain lions, coyotes, and other predators that took place in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries wasn't messing with Mother Nature? Or the holocaust against the buffalo? If you're really concerned about not messing with Mother Nature then stop driving........ she'll thank you for the lesser amounts of drilling and pollutants you've added to the air and water.

Having recently owned a home and lived in Idaho I fear that what has happened there will eventually move east. At trail head kiosks in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming one often encounters this poster: See it, kill it, and don't say a word. This text is printed over an outline of a wolf. The reintroduction of wolves out there has created a lot of angry people.

I have a feeling that a lot of these people were angry before the reintroduction of wolves - angry, ignorant, and easily manipulated through their irrational fears........ as far as the Eastern Coyote being a "problem" it could be debated how much of a problem they really are.

Nature deplores a vacuum. The lack of predators in the NE woods have created an imbalance that encouraged the growth of an largely unchecked deer herd, whose current size is unnatural and also negatively affects the growth of certain species of trees and vegetation. The Eastern coyote is a fairly new phenomena but their presence is beneficial in many ways to the ecosystems they inhabit. If you're concerned about their numbers then you should be all for the re-introduction of wolves and other predators because they will help to keep down the Eastern coyotes numbers.

 

[Lawn Sale]

I have a feeling that a lot of these people were angry before the reintroduction of wolves - angry, ignorant, and easily manipulated through their irrational fears........ as far as the Eastern Coyote being a "problem" it could be debated how much of a problem they really are.

Nature deplores a vacuum. The lack of predators in the NE woods have created an imbalance that encouraged the growth of an largely unchecked deer herd, whose current size is unnatural and also negatively affects the growth of certain species of trees and vegetation. The Eastern coyote is a fairly new phenomena but their presence is beneficial in many ways to the ecosystems they inhabit. If you're concerned about their numbers then you should be all for the re-introduction of wolves and other predators because they will help to keep down the Eastern coyotes numbers.

Let me guess, you have never bene chased out of an area by a pack of coyotes?

My brother, a friend, and I were, and we were lucky to escape. We went back with guns but couldn't find them. If they're not a "problem", why is there no closed hunting season on them?

I have also had other close calls with packs when hunting with my dad, to the point he looked at me and asked how much ammo I had.

I am not in favor of the reintroduction. After this, do we repopulate the eastern mountain lion as well? How about the caribou? Where does it end?

If the species didn't repopulate itself through natural migration, leave it alone, nature will seek its own balance...and I include man as part of nature.

Also, the migration of humans has significantly reduced the carrying capacity of the deer and moose population, so maybe we should also put a stop to development?

 

[Tim Seaver]

Awooooooooo!

Other than a three-year old being killed by a Coyote in 1983, there are no fatalities on record that I can find. Coyotes are known to follow people in the backcountry, sometimes for miles, but instances of them attacking adults are extremely rare.

Coyote Attacks On People in the U.S. and Canada

By contrast, over 300 people have been killed by domestic dogs since 1979.

Ironically, 7 people have been killed in the act of "coyote control" from aircraft.Aerial coyote gunning is taking a human toll

Reintroducing the wolf in the Northeast would certainly be an interesting experiment, and one that I would be supportive of.

I mean, it's not like we don't have the ability to kill them all off like we did in the past if it doesn't work out.

 

[thuja]

Let me guess, you have never bene chased out of an area by a pack of coyotes?

My brother, a friend, and I were, and we were lucky to escape. We went back with guns but couldn't find them. If they're not a "problem", why is there no closed hunting season on them?

I have also had other close calls with packs when hunting with my dad, to the point he looked at me and asked how much ammo I had.

pshaw! If you were a two-year-old child, or a domestic cat, I could understand your anxiety about
coyotes. As you appear to be an adult male, I think your account of being pursued by coyotes is just a matter of getting spooked. Of course, I could be wrong; you could be the first adult person in the recorded history of N America to be eaten by coyotes. If so, I will be happy to revise my opinions.

I am not in favor of the reintroduction. After this, do we repopulate the eastern mountain lion as well?

Probably not necessary. My reading is that they are coming back on their own. Certainly there appears now to be an established breeding population in Minnesota, and their are some very recent very solid records (hair traps, scat) from Quebec. One or more of them in the Gaspé, so the cougars wouldn't have to find a way across the St Lawrence valley to get to New England. see the eastern cougar net , interesting stuff.
Cougar do not need really wild, undisturbed country; they seem to do quite well in WA in industrial forest landscapes, similar to Northern and Western Maine. All they really need is deer and cover.
I reckon that's a really scary prospect for you, given your fears about the much less lethal coyotes. But I assure you, cougars usually leave people alone.

How about the caribou? Where does it end?

Indeed, how about caribou? Is there some reason we should not try to reintroduce a charismatic extirpated species, if most of the habitat requirements are still here? Big problem with caribou reintroduction efforts in ME, so far as I know, is that they need reasonably mature forest, and no forest on industrial lands in maine is allowed to gete very old before it is whacked. Would it be such a bad thing if we set aside a township where we let the forest get old again for the caribou?

As for where it ends, why not when all the keystone species have been brought back?

Regarding the possibility of wolves in the Adirondacks and northern Maine, as others have pointed out, there are too many deer in the Northeast, and they are putting a lot of pressure on certain species of browse plants, e.g, forest floor herbs like ginseng, spring ephemeral wildflowers, and northern white cedar. Bring 'em on, I say. The runaway success of the Yellowstone and Idaho wolf reintroductions certainly suggests that if you give 'em get a little help, they'll do the rest. It's not like people run free-range cattle, sheep and livestock much in the Daks or New England. Certainly wolves and free-range livestock don't mix very well.

I have been privileged to hear wolves a couple of times in the wild. It was a neat experience, more pleasing than the crazy yipping and yowling of coyotes.

Also, the migration of humans has significantly reduced the carrying capacity of the deer and moose population, so maybe we should also put a stop to development?

I think you are revealing your complete ignorance of the habitat requirements of deer and moose. Logging, forest woodlots, patchy exurban landscapes, deer love that stuff. Why do you think there is such a plague of deer in new jersey suburbs? Probably more whitetails now than in pre-columbian times.

 

[tycho_32]

I have a feeling that a lot of these people were angry before the reintroduction of wolves - angry, ignorant, and easily manipulated through their irrational fears

I find it funny that people who dont agree with us are usually labeled as ignotarant or worse. Whats funny is they probably think the same about you and whats even more funny is that the truth probaby lies somewhere in the middle.

Dont most of you consider man an animal anyway? What would we do if some other predator had destroyed all the animals in a particular region? Snakes introduced on Carribean islands being killed by introduced mongoose for instance. Try looking at the issue from both sides of it--talk to a person, without attacking them, and listen to their view on the issue. I guarantee that they are not all ignorant or scared or uneducated or what have you. You may not agree with them when they are done but you will learn their level of intelligence.

I personally would love to see wolves while hiking. The way I look at the "danger" is, you are in the WILDERNESS. Plus I dont have to run faster than the wolf just faster than one of the people with me. Wildlife is one of the prime reasons that I took up hiking and camping. I thought I read somewhere that more people are gored by deer every year than are killed by your "predatory" animals.

 

[funkyfreddy]

I find it funny that people who dont agree with us are usually labeled as ignotarant or worse.

Please read and then re-read my original post and take my words in the context which they were written. Look again at the quote I was responding to! I was not labeling everyone who disagrees with me as ignorant - never have, never will!

However - I think ignorance is a fairly benign label for people who put up posters at trailheads advocating the poaching of endangered species, don't you?

 

[Maddy]

A simple YES.
My reason why is best stated by CHIEF SEATTLE.

"So we will consider your offer to buy our land. If we decide to accept, I will make one condition: The white man must treat the beasts of this land as his brothers.
I am a savage and I do not understand any other way."
(Says a lot for us doens't it???)
"I've seen a thousand rotting buffaloes on the prairie, left by the white man who shot them from a passing train."
(Didn't we shoot wolves from aircraft and use cruel traps to rid ourselves of wolves?)
I am a savage and I do not understand how the smoking iron horse can be more important than the buffalo that we kill only to stay alive.
What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, man would die from a great loneliness of spirit.FOR WHATEVER HAPPENS TO THE BEASTS, SOON HAPPENS TO MAN. ALL THINGS ARE CONNECTED."

"Man does NOT weave the web of life: he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself"

I just can't improve on the Chief's wisdom.
As I ponder this my only question is: If this is the philosophy of a savage, how do we describe ourselves???
He does make a fair amoun't of sense, does he not?

 

[Rob S]

Fred, I was just going to post the same thing .... but you beat me to it.

It was my take that Fred was not calling everyone who disagrees with him ignorant. He was merely responding to the fact that someone may be promoting illegal activity. Simple as that, or at least I thought .......

Let's please keep this thread civil. I don't want to see it deleted or locked due to name calling. I've learned a lot from this thread but I still have unanswered questions, and I'd like to hear more thoughtful responses. So far, every single post has contained some good information. I have a hard time believing the chased by coyotes story, and I thank Tim Seaver for the stats. Nothing personal Lawnsale, but I tend to agree with thuja's response to your post. And yes, seeing Caribou in the northeast would be very OK with me! But thanks for your input because without hearing responses from both sides, it would not be a very interesting debate.

 

[sweeper]

If they don't want them send them to Antrim NH

 

[tycho_32]

However - I think ignorance is a fairly benign label for people who put up posters at trailheads advocating the poaching of endangered species, don't you?

I could not agree with you more. Actually I think that the government has a name for them--criminals.

If the others that replied to my post would reread it they will see that i was advocating talking to other people about there views. I did not, not to I advocate name calling on these or any other forums.

As stated in my earlier post I have no problem with the reintroduction of wolves especially as I would love to see and photograph them. I want my baby girl to know a world where the world is full of wild animals.

 

[Artex]

If they're not a "problem", why is there no closed hunting season on them?

Coyotes are an invasive species in many areas, therefore hunting is allowed year round. Hunting seasons are designed to help control animal populations. If the animal isn't supposed to be there to begin with... well, different story.

 

[Tim Seaver]

Throughout the Northeast, the myth (?) seems to be that the coyotes are "stealing" deer that rightly "belong" to the deer hunters, which could be one of the reasons for the open season. Another possible reason is that because their pelts are worth relatively little ($2 to $27) , that not many people pursue them as game, justifying an open season year round. Not sure how they taste

"It's not much fun when you sit in a tree stand and you watch coyotes chase off the deer," says Russell.

( From :Vermont's Fifth Annual Hound Dog Hill Coyote Hunt )

Maine's War on Coyotes

....As far as the unit had been able to determine, in nine months 41 animals had killed zero deer. There had been deer hair in the scats, but in almost every case the researchers had been able to pinpoint the source: carrion. Documented stomach or scat contents had included varying hare, butterflies, beetles, grasshoppers, berries, apples, offal, fish, voles, aluminum foil, rope, leaves, leather, dog food, and dog-food bags. That year eastern coyotes made it onto the Maine Republican platform, where they were identified as one of just three environmental ills worthy of the party's consideration (the others being anti-pesticide sentiment and unfair property taxes).