what digicam to buy for trails?

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I also give the Panasonic FZ line thumbs up. All my pics since Jan 1 (except for my Hancock hike June 12) have been with my FZ20. The FZ5 is definitely lighter (11.5oz vs 19.6oz w/ batteries) and smaller, a very few other differences: FZ5 has no hotshoe for external flash, does not have manual focus, the LCD view is slightly smaller (1.8" vs. 2.0"), the built-in flash is slightly less powerful, and the max aperture is just a tad smaller at telephoto ranges (F/3.3 vs F/2.8). [Source: dpreview.com. ] Same CCD size (1/2.5") so the picture quality should be about the same. Not sure about external lenses/adapters -- my FZ20 comes with a 72mm adapter but that's a weird size so I bought a 3rd-party 62mm adapter. The FZ5 reviews I've looked at seem to indicate that you can use something in the 52mm-55mm range for add-on lenses/filters, but I'm not positive.

For my purposes the manual focus is a must-have, I've screwed up too many pix with autofocus.

Image stabilization rules!!!! I can shoot in much dimmer situations w/o a tripod (as long as the subject doesn't move much), exposure-time maybe a factor of 5-8 longer than w/o image stabilization.
 
I've been using a Canon SD10, and highly recommend it. It's been replaced by the SD20, which is the same camera with 5 megapixel chip. It's small, and has a water/impact resistant case that can be purchased separately. It fits perfectly in the hip belt pockets of my pack, anything larger would have to be stored in the main section. The downsides to having such a small camera is: no optical zoom and no viewfinder(just an lcd screen).

DCRP Canon SD20 Review
example pic
 
I was hiking with a friend (BigMoose) who had a Cannon A510 and since I've been looking at the A520 I was interested in his complaints about the Aperture setting. The max (or was it min.?) setting was only F-8. I read up on aperture but the info I found dosn't make recommendations for what is good and why.
What should I look for as far as max and min F-stops and why?
 
I have a canon sd300, it's a 4mp camera, with a 3x zoon and it's VERY small, but durable. The only smaller cameras with a 3x zoom are the sony one with Aerosmith in the commercial and a couple by casio.

It takes pretty good pics, the sony p200 takes better pics but it's a little bigger and more expensive, which is why I didn't get it.

I'll try to post some pics I've taken with it later. The great thing about such a small camera is that you can put it in your pocket and take a photo whenever you want.

For high-quality photos, definitely get something bigger.
 
Canon A520

I have a Canon A520 4 MP and have to say that it is the easiest cam device I have used in years, however being no expert that I am.
Sure there are far better cameras out there, but for the weight and ease of use its a great unit. Cost was $280 plus cards.
Like most cameras, there is a dialed pre-set for faster photo opportunity conditions.
The manual settings go from F3.2(?) to F8, but as I am no master of these settings I stick to the presets. I did take some cool fire photos playing around with the time exposure and F stops then used the autotimer to keep the cam still.
Zoom lens operates 4x optical and 3x digital for 12x total!
Its my understanding that 4x optical is quite high for a unit so small.

But by far the best option is the panorama stitch assisted function. This allows multiple pan shots by keeping a margin of previous shot in viewer to match against next shot.
The PC software does the job of stitching together the frames quite nicely.

Double "AA" batteries are a must if you plan extended backcountry trips and should use lithium type, good for about 400 shots easy. For day trips I use rechargeable units.
You get the best of both worlds.

I believe there are options for lens changing and filters ect, not yet explored this.
Finally the cam uses SD media cards which are the least expensive and most universal.

Brownie
 
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Neil said:
I was hiking with a friend (BigMoose) who had a Cannon A510 and since I've been looking at the A520 I was interested in his complaints about the Aperture setting. The max (or was it min.?) setting was only F-8. I read up on aperture but the info I found dosn't make recommendations for what is good and why.
What should I look for as far as max and min F-stops and why?
Click to expand...

F-8 is pretty much for daylight shooting and not for low light stuff. For that area, low light, you need to get down to F 1.4 or so. I am speaking from SLR experience but the principal has to be the same. Your lens opening combined with shutter speed controls the amount of light that strikes your medium. Your lowest F stop is the widest your lens will open for maximum exposure. The higher end, F16 for instance is the narrowest opening. Most sunny day pics would require F8 or so. Really bright stuff or if a fast shutter speed is used to stop motion then something in the area of F16 or F22 would be selected. Those dusk or almost night pics require the other end like F1.2 or so on. The wider the range your camera or lens offers the better and of course the more expensive.

Also the narrower F stop ie: f16 f22 will give you more depth of field in your picture resolution and is a good choice if you are hoping to have over all clarity. The wider openings f 5.6 will give you a less detailed background. You know like less detail on the distant valley or ridge. Going for the detail requires a slower shutter speed and a steady hand as well.

For point and shoot you are likely to find something with a fixed F8 and an ability to marginally adjust the shutter speed to slow down to shoot in low light or speed up to freeze action. Sometimes they don't identify the F stops or shutter speeds they give you a little dial with symbols. You know a sun a cloud, whatever, when you select one of those setting the camera picks the apperature and shutter speed it deems appropriate without telling you what they are.

Hope that helps. As I said I have mainly used SLR's but the basic rule of how much light strikes your medium whether film or data card still applies.
 
Brownie said:
Zoom lens operates 4x optical and 3x digital for 12x total!
Its my understanding that 4x optical is quite high for a unit so small.
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Turn off the digital zoom, it is pretty much worthless. All it does is crop the image, losing pixels in the process. You can do a much better job by yourself on the computer rather than in the camera. 4x in a camera that small is good, but there are now smaller 4x and 5x lenses.
But by far the best option is the panorama stitch assisted function. This allows multiple pan shots by keeping a margin of previous shot in viewer to match against next shot.
The PC software does the job of stitching together the frames quite nicely.
Click to expand...
I like the pano mode in my Canon as well, but you can use stand-alone photo stitching software that works just as well. But having it bundled with the camera is a nice convienence factor.
Double "AA" batteries are a must if you plan extended backcountry trips and should use lithium type, good for about 400 shots easy. For day trips I use rechargeable units.
Click to expand...
I've used both rechargable AAs and propierty Li-Ion batteries depending on the camera, and both work pretty darn well. I can easily get 400 shots on the Li-Ion that comes with the SD300 as long as I'm not using flash, which I don't do in the woods. For ultra-compacts you pretty much have to have propietary batteries anyways.

Finally the cam uses SD media cards which are the least expensive and most universal.
Click to expand...
Actually, Compact Flash is cheaper, more universal (though that is changing), and has higher capacity cards. But SD is catching up.

Canon just announced the A610/A620 which are more advanced cameras (more manual controls, better features) but might not be needed by most folks. These are really the replacements for the A95, not the A510/520.

Lots of good cameras out there, you can't go very far wrong.

-dave-
 
AntlerPeak said:
Hope that helps. As I said I have mainly used SLR's but the basic rule of how much light strikes your medium whether film or data card still applies.
Click to expand...
Due to the much smaller focal lengths due to the CCDs being much smaller than a 35mm negative, depth of field is quite wide for most P&S digital cameras. In fact, it's pretty hard to get a narrow DoF for portraits and the like no matter what f-stop you use.

The current crop of P&S cameras (Fuji F-10 and Oly 800) have much lower noise at high ISO values (800 and 1600) that was impossible just last year. Until now you had to go dSLR to get those results. This could be a fairly major shift, low light non-flash images have been a real problem for digitals.

-dave-
 
David Metsky said:
Turn off the digital zoom, it is pretty much worthless. All it does is crop the image, losing pixels in the process.
Click to expand...

Good advice Dave I'll try that.

I've used both rechargable AAs and propierty Li-Ion batteries depending on the camera, and both work pretty darn well. I can easily get 400 shots on the Li-Ion that comes with the SD300 as long as I'm not using flash, which I don't do in the woods. For ultra-compacts you pretty much have to have propietary batteries anyways.
Click to expand...

What happens when the proprietary battery runs out and you have no recharge options?
During my week out west I shot about 1 gig, 900 shots.
I used 2 pair of lithium "AA". No outlets in sight!


Actually, Compact Flash is cheaper, more universal (though that is changing), and has higher capacity cards. But SD is catching up.
Click to expand...
Shop for sales and rebates for these. I got a SD512 MB card for $30 final cost, but have seen as much as $80 for the same one.

I wish I knew more about how to use all the lighting functions. Through trail and error I have somewhat, but forget how to return to the same manual settings, that which is mastered by real photographers.
My basic understanding is to combine the F stop with shutter speeds. It almost seems an infinite combination, but I am sure it's easily mastered by the masters themselves.

For now I am just a point shoot and click rookie ;)
The more I use the camera the more I learn each time.
 
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Brownie said:
What happens when the proprietary battery runs out and you have no recharge options?
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You become the proud owner of a dead camera...

So far, I have been able to avoid proprietary batteries (AA lives!). But decent cameras with standard batteries are becoming scarcer and scarcer. If the proprietary battery is changable, you might be able to buy a spare. But on a long trip, your options are still limited.

One of the things I like about my old film SLR is that only the meter is electric...

I wish I knew more about how to use all the lighting functions. Through trail and error I have somewhat, but forget how to return to the same manual settings, that which is mastered by real photographers.
My basic understanding is to combine the F stop with shutter speeds. It almost seems an infinite combination, but I am sure it's easily mastered by the masters themselves.
Click to expand...
My digital P&S camera (Canon A75) has optional manual control of everything, but much of it isn't very usable and/or has lousy feedback:
* Focus: measure the distance with a tape and set. You cannot judge the focus in the viewfinder or display. Basically requires a tripod and static subject.
* aperture: a very narrow range: 2-3 stops.
* exposure time: wide range, but the aperture range is so narrow that you have a very limited choice.
So I run the camera in a semi-auto mode and hope it dosen't screw up...
(The auto modes are better than a novice, but distinctly inferior to someone who knows what he is doing.)

My control of my camera and success rate is better with my old film SLR, but the digital P&S is light, and convienent. And I have a 28mm lens for the SLR while the P&S only goes down to ~35mm equivalent...

Probably won't be happy until I spend the big bucks and get a digital SLR. But they mostly (all?) come with proprietary batteries, non-CF cards, etc.

Doug
 
So far I haven't needed a backup battery yet for the SD300, but I'll pick one up soon. Still, by always using the optical viewfinder instead of the screen and not previewing much, I can get the batteries to last a good long time. If you are away from a power source you'll need to carry extras. They can be AAs or proprietary, the cost isn't really all that different. I can get a backup battery for $17 for my camera, with the two of them I can easily last a weekend.

Longer than that and you have a problem, but you have the same problem with AAs. It's nice to be able to buy alkaline AAs in a pinch, but if you want a small camera that's not an option.

-dave-
 
DougPaul said:
Probably won't be happy until I spend the big bucks and get a digital SLR. But they mostly (all?) come with proprietary batteries, non-CF cards, etc.
Click to expand...
The Nikon and Canon dSLRs all take CF and CFII, but they do have propietary batteries. But the newest Canon gets 1200 shots on the NiMH battery pack, that'll do a whole lot of damage.

-dave-
 
AntlerPeak said:
Also the narrower F stop ie: f16 f22 will give you more depth of field in your picture resolution and is a good choice if you are hoping to have over all clarity.
Click to expand...
that's the main reason to go to high fstops. The average non-SLR digital camera will be in the 2.8-8.0 range. The limitation on the large-aperture end would be the lens size, on the small-aperture end would be diffraction effects. For macro photography, high F-stops are essential if you are working with high-zooms, otherwise the depth of field may only be a few millimeters.
 
Now I'm getting it. Digicams of the likes that most of us use are basically high-tech P&S cameras. Most of us are interested in the batteries, memory cards, weight, number of pixels etc. than in the actual photographic capacity. F stops, ISO numbers, manual settings, use of filters etc. is for those of you who "compose" pictures. I "take" pictures which document what I saw and did. You guys interpret and somehow get subjectively inside your photographs and need the equipment to help you do that.
 
David Metsky said:
The Nikon and Canon dSLRs all take CF and CFII, but they do have propietary batteries. But the newest Canon gets 1200 shots on the NiMH battery pack, that'll do a whole lot of damage.
Click to expand...
Better, but I would still like the versatility of standard batteries. The issue could become serious on a long (multi-week) trip. Or, let's say you wanted to take the camera on the AT--with standard batteries, you at least have a chance of picking up replacements.

Doug
 
Neil said:
Now I'm getting it. Digicams of the likes that most of us use are basically high-tech P&S cameras.
Click to expand...
Correct.

Most of us are interested in the batteries, memory cards, weight, number of pixels etc. than in the actual photographic capacity.
Click to expand...
These are certainly the features that are advertised. The more careful reviews aimed at experienced users also talk about the other details.

F stops, ISO numbers, manual settings, use of filters etc. is for those of you who "compose" pictures. I "take" pictures which document what I saw and did. You guys interpret and somehow get subjectively inside your photographs and need the equipment to help you do that.
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These aspects are just a means to an end. Many experienced photographers know what their cameras can do and see the picture in their heads before they even pick up the camera. The focal lenghts, apertures, shutter speeds, film speeds, filters, manual settings, etc give us the control needed to get what we want. The automatic modes can't read the photographer's mind, might pick the wrong object to focus on, don't do the depth-of-field trade-offs according to one's wishes, frequently don't give a good exposure in unusual conditions, etc.

The automatic modes will give a better success percentage than manual for a novice, but do not work as well as manual controls in the hands of an experienced user.

I personally tend to have two modes--recorder and artistic photographer.
* Recording mode: If I am going somewhere that I might not get back to (eg Grand Canyon), I'll take lots of pictures to record where I have been and what is there. (Of course I'll still try to get some good photographs too.)
* Photographer mode: If I am on familiar ground (eg the Whites), I may leave my camera in my pack until I see a good picture (ie one that is worth hanging on a wall without a caption). I have carried the camera on a number of hikes without taking any pictures when in this mode.

Of course, digital photos are cheap and encourage me to tend more toward recording mode, hopefully getting at least a few good photographs in the pile.

Doug
 
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Re proprietary batteries: i agree with the gist of what Dave said/implied - many of the newer proprietary batteries last a good LONG time. The Panasonic FZ5 prop batt seems to last 4-ever. Have NEVER had to go my second battery even on 4 day trips and i'm not as frugal with my power as Dave (i view and review my pics). IMO prop batteries are much more convenient than old fashioned batteries, except maybe in the very limited case where you're going on the AT or away for weeks at a time. But clearly, speaking from actual experience, any two prop batteries that last as long as the FZ5's would easily get you through most any 2-week trip. All that being said, i have NO idea how prop batteries stack up against disposable lithiums in the cold...
 
Gris said:
All that being said, i have NO idea how prop batteries stack up against disposable lithiums in the cold...
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According to my battery info source (http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm), Lion and NiMH rechargables are similar to each other and not as good in the cold as disposable Lithium. Certainly better than alkaline.

There are actually two technologies of lithium rechargables--IIRC, Lion and lithium polymer. Lion is more common and more likely what you get with a camera. (Lion is better than lithium polymer in the cold.)

Doug
 
I've long been a fan of Canon's proprietary batteries, ever since I ordered a spare with my G3. I never needed it! Not only that, but after taking a couple hundred shots in a day, the battery life indicator didn't even flinch. So I had those two batteries, and they are interchangeable with the one that came with my Pro1, and the one that came with my G6. They really do work well.
 
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