What would you do?

[Hikerdad]

I have to agree with Grumpy, Jay and Mavs as to kid's endurance. I hesitated getting mine into hiking and when I did, they did better than me....They really can do a lot....if the kid is the type that doesn't mind a little dirt and the like they can handle a lot. They also forget quickly about the physical discomfort...On my first overnight (3rd highpeak) with kids (aged 8 and 12) we were to hike to Slant Rock, then do Marcy the next day.... while at JBL I decided to (what the heck) go over Basin and Saddleback (with full packs) and down the Shorey Shortcut to Slant Rock (oh and by the way it was dizzling when I made this inspired decision). As you can imagine the hike up and over was pretty much a disaster but by that evening, with hot chocolate in them, dry clothes on, enjoying the fire and the fellow campers at the leanto, they were fine..the weather cleared up during the evening and we did Marcy the next day with no trouble. And I think they talk about that trip more than any other we've done...and the pictures of them siting in the Gothics/Saddbacl col, in the drizzle/fog, looking so forlorn are absolutely priceless. I certainly done recomend doing what I did but it does show they are pretty resilient...

 

[Bjarni]

I think the issue is less what kids are physically able to do than it was what they're truly interested in and enjoy. When my boys were 6 and 8 I'd take them on hikes in some state parks in CT. But I'd also do a lot of other different things with them, since what I was looking for was that spark of interest from them that told me that whatever activity it was, was something they wanted to do more of. If it was hiking, fine. If not, fine. I'm a firm believer that forcing kids to do something they're just not into, despite their physical ability to do it, is a big mistake - one that can fester and create worse problems later on.

We all learn from experience. One of mine was to have been forced by my compulsive father to accompany him to climb all the NH 4,000s in the mid 60's, when I was 12 - 14. We did them all over the course of three summers (we lived in CT). I absolutely hated it, because I came to associate climbing up mountains with being forced to do something I didn't want to do. I wasn't given a choice. The result was that once we had finished I resolutely swore never to cross the state line into New Hampshire again, and didn't for more than 25 years. Finally I got back into it, but no thanks to that early experience.

Who would want their kid to have an experience like that, unless the kid absolutely loves it?

 

[MadRiver]

The biggest concern I have with my friend's proposed trip is not with the children’s ability to do the hike, although that is an issue, but he and his wife’s ability to carry all the gear. To my knowledge, neither has ever done an overnight backpacking trip. I believe if I were to put together a list of gear that he will need complete with the weight of each item, he might begin to realize what taking a family of four to a backcountry campsite entails.

The children will not carry much more than water and a snack, which leaves the bulk of the gear split between to novice, and somewhat overweight and out-of-shape, parents. If this trip ever does come to fruition, my wife and I will more than likely join them to make the trip somewhat easier on all concerned. I would just hate to have the children turned off to hiking because their first trip was a tad too ambitious.

The other, and arguably most important issue that has been raised, is forcing the children to accomplish some goal that is not their own but their father’s. Unfortunately each time I point out to a parent some unrealistic goal or endeavor they have set for their children, they remind me that since I am not a parent, I cannot possible have a valid opinion on their child’s ability to accomplish said goal. Personally, I find that a bullsh*t argument, but for some reason that seems to be the logic they use.

I suppose the easiest way for Tim to understand what he is in for is to load up my backpack with all the items he would have to carry and take him up Garfield for a day hike. But who knows, this all might be a pipedream and never again mentioned.

 

[sapblatt]

The other, and arguably most important issue that has been raised, is forcing the children to accomplish some goal that is not their own but their father’s. Unfortunately each time I point out to a parent some unrealistic goal or endeavor they have set for their children, they remind me that since I am not a parent, I cannot possible have a valid opinion on their child’s ability to accomplish said goal. Personally, I find that a bullsh*t argument, but for some reason that seems to be the logic they use.

As a parent I totally agree with you...

 

[Grumpy]

Not wishing to be preachy, but . . .

The impulse to direct others’ decisions (and lives) for their own good is common, understandable and perhaps (ocasionally) even noble. So give what advice you deem appropriate, in gentle fashion and when it's solicited when dealing with friends. And recognize you can’t control what isn’t yours to control. There comes a time when you just should butt out of what really is other folks’ business, and let them try their own things, achieve their own successes and victories, make their own mistakes, and gain their own experiences.

Lip-biting is a well developed skill among mature people who know how to build and maintain mutually respectful, lasting relationships.

G.

 

[VFTTop'r]

Along with Grumpy, does your friend want your input?

If so I have a couple of suggestions:
Have your friend read a couple of accounts from "Not Without Peril" to give him an idea of how things can go bad up high. Then price out what the cost will be to get equipped. Have him go on a day hike first or an easy overnight with someone experienced. Then he will know if he is ready.

I took my kids on day hikes often when they were younger (6-7 and up). Maybe I pushed them to hard or it's not their thing, I don't know. At this point they are not really interested in hiking so I go with friends who are. My kids tend to be interested in other things and that's ok. I always tell them when I'm going and that they are welcome to come along anytime.

 

[MadRiver]

Lip-biting is a well developed skill among mature people who know how to build and maintain mutually respectful, lasting relationships.
G.

Trust me; I have learned a long time ago to keep my mouth shut when listening to some of the unrealistic stuff that comes out of the mouths of parents nowadays, so I have as yet voiced my concern over Tim’s proposed hike to Garfield to either of them personally. I figure I could post it here and get some feed back from other hikers who have children to see if I am overreacting or there is legitimate concern.

Whatever he decides to do, I will be supportive and help facilitate their hike in any way that I can.

 

[beverly]

Lip Biting

Lip-biting is a well developed skill among mature people who know how to build and maintain mutually respectful, lasting relationships.

G.

I would hope that many more people would heed your sage advice on this and many other threads!

I've been biting my lip so often lately that it's permanently indented!

 

[MadRiver]

Along with Grumpy, does your friend want your input?

Given that my wife, our hiking buddy John, and I are the only people he knows who hikes/backpacks on a regular basis, I will assume (yeah I know the saying) he raised the issue with us to gauge our reaction to his impending goal. During the initial conversation, we were all very supportive and conveyed our own personal satisfaction with completing the 48’s. Privately however, John, my wife, and I all had some reservations about his impending Garfield trip. John, who is a parent of a 13 year old, also felt that Garfield was a tad too ambitious for the two kids.

As I said, we were all supportive and will more than likely participate in the trip if it ever happens. We just want the kids to have fun.

 

[mavs00]

I think the issue is less what kids are physically able to do than it was what they're truly interested in and enjoy. When my boys were 6 and 8 I'd take them on hikes in some state parks in CT. But I'd also do a lot of other different things with them, since what I was looking for was that spark of interest from them that told me that whatever activity it was, was something they wanted to do more of. If it was hiking, fine. If not, fine............

Interesting discussion, on many levels. With that story, it amazing you'd even hike at all today, given the multitude of other activities out there that would not bring back ugly memories. I find it also interesting that you, after having such a negative experience hiking the 48 as a child with your own father, choose to take your own youngs kids out hiking (Granted not in NH) in seach of finding a mutual activity to enjoy with them. That's true Irony for you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying anything at all, and I think it admirable that you were able to look past your own experiences to seek out fun things to do with your own kids.

I suppose it's like so many other things, kids will choose to decide for themselves what they enjoy. I guess I should be thankful mine DO LIKE to hike, but to be honest, it can be a pain. A romantic weekend in the mountains with the Mrs (who also likes to hike)? Forget it, our kids would literally DISOWN us if we chose to leave them home and WE went hiking. And for some reason, my 14 y/o doesn't understand that me taking him hiking in the ADKs doesn't mean I'm automatically gonna fork over $1200 for the Alpine Ascents Glaicer Mountaineer School, so he can "get ready for Everest".

You should have seen the "your such a MEAN father" look I got with that one.

Interesting thread - Grump and Bev are dead on with the "biting your lip" comment (I'm guilty of not doing it recently out of frustration ) and alot of other good stuff (on both sides) about dealing with kids (YOUR OWN KIDS) and about not really having much power to dictate what others do with theirs.

 

[Tramper Al]

Interesting

As the father of an ambitious 8 month old, I find this very interesting. Lately, he has expressed an interest in 'hiking' the NH 4Ks - I freguently catch him flipping through the back of the WMG. Of course for him, hiking means riding on Dad's back in the KangaKid. He hiked Watatic and Wachusett that way last fall before the snow fell in earnest.

I love that he's interested, but I think I'll start him off much more gradually, and closer to home. I've been leaving my copy of "Best Hikes with Children in Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island" out for him, and I've seen him looking over my shoulder at the MA Delorme, so we'll see.

We've so much to do . . .

 

[Neil]

Madriver, If I was in your vantage point I would simply say,"Wow, I could never do that " and that would be it. I have enough problems of my own without taking on other people's.

For those parents out there,
My 16 year old boy and I are a few peaks shy of our father-son ADK 46 and our 46-W is well underway. Last week I did Seward with a couple of buddies while my son stayed at home (smart kid). Even though he is an awesome hiking force and fully capable of taking care of himself he's still my kid and I really enjoyed having a break from hiking with him and not being a parent while out hiking.

 

[MadRiver]

A couple of quick points before allowing this thread to die a natural death.

How many of you parents who took your kids on their first backpacking trip had never backpacked yourself before the trip? Does that make a difference? I have my own thoughts on the subject, but since I’m not a parent I was wondering what your thoughts were. For example, if your child’s best friend’s father decided to take his child and your child on an overnight trip, yet he had never backpacked before himself, would you let your child go, or at least have a talk with the father?

At what point can a non-parent voice an opinion on a subject dealing with a child’s ability to accomplish a given goal? Only when the non-parent has expertise in the area and the parent doesn’t?

Most of the time a parent’s belief that their child can accomplish a certain goal is benign in nature. There are occasions, however, where there can be serious consequences to their actions if care is not taken. I’m not suggesting that taking an overnight trip to Garfield warrants that level of concern. Yet, since I have backpacked to Garfield on a number of occasions and have taken a different trail each time, I do believe I can at least share my experiences without be accused of interfering in the relationship between a parent and child. Bottom line is I want my friend’s children to be safe, and have a good time.

 

[Gris]

I can speak to your issues. I have backpacked with both of my children, both as pre-teens and teenagers, including overnighters (less with my son, he doesn't like the outdoors as much as daughter). Of course there is a first time for everyone. It's just usually not up a mountain.

If this is only a one-nighter it will be over soon enough. The Garfield trail (as opposed to the ridge) tho long, is actually supposed to be relatively benign.

So long as your friend doesn't make pack-mules out of his children I don't think they will suffer too much. It will probably be your friend who'll do the suffering.

I think the real issues are safety and packweight - whether your friend properly gears up and whether he can haul it up there comfortably. Try to make sure he takes what he needs. And, remind him humping a 40+ lb. pack 5 miles up is a whole different ball game than toting a 5-10 lb. daypack.

Strongly suggest that they all agree who is going to carry what before they go. Since his children are still relatively young and probably don't have as nice a pack as he does, they won't be able to carry much. (I always made a game out of making my kids carrying something "important," then I'd ask them, "how's the stove? Don't let it fall, good, good job.")

I'll bet he's planning on being the workhorse. He'll probably see the light at that point. If he doesn't, suggest he try carrying that load up a mountain on a test run as someone previously suggested. If he balks at that maybe he'll get a lesson he deserves.

Good luck and let us know how it comes out.

 

[twigeater]

Though I wouldn't recommend it, my first backpacking trip was also my son's first backpacking trip. My first hike up Katahdin was up Abol with my son and a friend of his (around age 9 or so) I definately would not recommend that!


Each year my brother in law and I take my nephew and one or two of his friends and backpack to Chimney Pond. We hike Katahdin and they do the Knife Edge.

I'm not sure if any of the parents ask questions or even know what the Knife Edge is. We provide them with a list of gear and get emergency contact info. We've learned to dump everyone's gear prior to leaving the house and re-org and exchange some things for extra stuff I have. The trip is often interesting, but we manage to get everyone there.

This year the request from my nephew, now 15, is for he and his buddy to do the mountain alone. I leave that to his dad to decide, but the kid has been doing the Knife Edge since he was 9 or 10.

Oh yeah, when my son was going up Katahdin with the Boy Scouts, I didn't ask any questions...but then again, I had no idea I needed to!

 

[LittleBear]

Here's a suggestion. Since your friend and his wife (and kids) have never gone backpacking before, why not suggest a "shake down cruise" before the "big hike" up Garfield. Suggest that this will give them a chance to figure out what to bring and how everything works on a short, easy trip. Then they can make adjustments for the Garfield overnight.

A great place for this "shake down cruise" would be to hike into Sawyer Pond. You can hike in from either the Kangamaugus side or from Sawyer River Road. Depending on water levels, the hike in from Sawyer River Road is probably easiest - about 2 or so miles? I can't remember. Anyway, it's a great hike, you're not too far from your car if things go terribly wrong, the hike is fairly flat, so everyone can get used to the load on their backs without having to deal with elevation gain. Sawyer Pond is a wonderful place. I used this as a shake down cruise for friends last year before we all headed out to the Grand Canyon for a 5 day trip. It worked out very well. My friends had a chance to get used to everything. They got to set up their tent and try out their stove and water filter. They planned dinner and breakfast. Although we weren't going to have to hang our food in the Grand Canyon (the campsites supply food lockers to store everything), we went through the exercise of hanging a bear bag. All in all, it was a great trip, they learned a lot - even found out that there were a few things they didn't need and a few things that had been forgotten.

Why not suggest something like this as a first step to becoming backpackers?

 

[catskillclimber]

I made that mistake.

I really wanted to get my son into hiking as he is an x-box addict (that damn thing is gonna come up missing real soon). However, I took him up a peak that totally exhaused him. Every time I promise to take him on an easy hike now he looks at me with suspicious eyes.
I have a chip on my shoulder about people offering unwanted advice, but in this case there is a kid in the picture so I would suggest talking your friend out of it if he doesn't have proper gear. Sherpa John had a great suggestion. Try to use your powers of persuasion to convince him that a short hike with a decent view would be more effective at getting his boy bit by the hiking bug.

 

[Grumpy]

Here's a thought . . .

On reflection, it occurs to me that virtually without exception the only decisions (choices) I truly regret having made so far through a lifetime of decision-making are those in which I substituted someone else’s judgement for my own.

Make of this what you will.

G.

 

[Halite]

A couple of quick points before allowing this thread to die a natural death.

How many of you parents who took your kids on their first backpacking trip had never backpacked yourself before the trip? Does that make a difference? I have my own thoughts on the subject, but since I’m not a parent I was wondering what your thoughts were. For example, if your child’s best friend’s father decided to take his child and your child on an overnight trip, yet he had never backpacked before himself, would you let your child go, or at least have a talk with the father?

My first backpacking trip was with my son--when he was about 7. I felt comfortable doing it since I had camped in other forms (canoe and bike) for years and had taken a number of shake-down trips to make sure my skills and gear were ready.

I would not allow someone who has no previous backpacking experience to take my kids out. I know it's a different standard than I applied to myself, but at least if I had screwed up I'd have had no one else to blame and no one else to feel guilty.

I don't think you need to bite your lip about this topic, since your friend raised the topic with you. You'll certainly know how to tactfully tell him your concerns without seeming bossy or condescending.

With some help from you, especially if you are willing to hump a larger load than otherwise, they could most likely make the trip up Garfield safely. Just plan on only doing it in really good weather and taking lots of time(My kids at that age often averaged no more than 1/2 mile per hour after all the rest stops and diversions to inspect bugs, twigs, rocks, etc. along the way.)

That being said, an easier, flatter shake-down trip or two would be a better introduction for all involved. Your friend may still decide to pursue Garfield and the 48 (with or without kids), but hopefully he'll realize the need to build slowly and train for it.

Good luck.

 

[MadRiver]

Thank you all for your input with respect to my questions and concerns. You were all very helpful and supportive. Normally a question like the one I posed could deteriorate quit rapidly given the subject matter; and except for one condescending remark, all the posts were helpful, which might be a record for this forum.

I’m not certain what my friend will do? If he decides to do the Garfield trip I will be supportive and offer him whatever gear he might need and any advice he might seek. If he doesn’t ask for anything, so be it.

Thanks again.