What's the scoop on Raineer Mountaineering Inc.?

[beaner]

Has anyone had any experience with or heard of the Raineer Mountaineering Inc. expeditions and seminars. I Googled climbing Mt Mckinley and their website popped up as a goto place for signing onto a Denali climb.

Previous mountaineering experience with things such as crevasse rescue, technical ice climbing, french technique(?) cramponing, ice axe arrest (both team and individual), working with ropes and anchors on ice or cliff I suppose seem to be prerequisites to climbing Denali.

Except for crevasse rescue I would think getting some ice climbing experience hear in the East would cover most of what their looking for. Of course we don't have any major elevation issues like on Raineer or Denali.

I am wondering if it would be worthwhile attending a seminar that would aim to summit Raineer as well as cover these various aspects of mountaineering. They offer 5day seminars on Raineer at a Camp Muir in May, June, and September. Of course summiting Raineer would be worth it in and of itself.

I have some rock climbing experience from many moons ago so I am familar with on and off belay, rappelling, anchoring to rock with various size wedges, etc. Anyway I am toying with the idea of climbing Denali and wondering if Raineer Mountaineering(RMI) is a good option. Would I be just as well off to take an EMS Ice climbing course or weekend to get the feel of that rather than do the Camp Muir seminar and head straight to a Denali climb with RMI?

 

[tonycc]

Denali is also in my dreams. I too, have been looking at the RMI school. I've had basic glacier training in Alaska, but I figure you can't get enough. I also have quite a bit of technical and nontechnical ice experience. One consideration for me is my lack of experience at altitude. I just turned down an opportunity for Kili ( completely not-technical climb) since the highest I have ever climbed is a little over 10,000'. Mt Ranier, or any of the other 14er's out west would be a great place to cut my altitude teeth before I go for a tough place like Denali.

I'm looking forward to hearing other opinions concerning this.

Tony

 

[Bluethroatedone]

Altitude is a funny thing...its one of the most overated and underated aspects to climbing. <note: by altitude I mean 10-20K ft, 20+ is a different issue, I would call "extreme altitude">

My wife and I have been up to 18,6 and spent a great deal of time above 10 carrying significant weight. We saw people of all ages and fitness levels at 18+. The vast majority of people will be just fine in altitude IF they don't do anything stupid (and take the time to aclimatize).

The best way I can describe being at altitude is like always feeling like you have just done 20 minutes of sprinting (or as others have described it, trying to exercie while breathing through a straw). Another way is think about how you feel/would feel on a hike after not hiking for 2 years, gaining weight and being completely out of shape.

There are two main effects: 1. You get out of breath much faster 2. Can feel bad (get bad headaches, feel like you have the flu etc.).

The "I feel drunk, can't think etc.", IMHO doesn't really occur until you get above 20.

Why its overstated: People expect you have to be in amazing shape etc. to go high. Nope. Most people regardless of shape will acclimatize. You don't feel that different, you'll just get more tired more quickly

Why its understated: People who heard the above are surprised that they don't feel like they were hit by a tractor trailer and so discount the advice and do stupid things (climb to high, don't listen to their bodies, take diamox right away, drink tons of beer etc.)

Note: Some people have bodies that don't acclimatize as well (production of additional red blood cells occurs more slowly/less completely)

My general advice is don't be affraid of altitude. Go there, assume you will have to take it slow, assume you'll get some kind of headaches. Follow Maximum assention guidelines....Know the signs of HAPE/HACE and head down the moment you see them...but don't let FEAR of altitude prevent you from doing what you love.

 

[Hampshire]

In February 2004 I took RMI’s winter expedition seminar. This seminar or “equivalent” training is a prerequisite to climb Denali with RMI. All the guide services on Denali require a similar (5-day mountaineering course) climbing prerequisite. I took the seminar with the goal of gaining experience (not to being guided up the mountain), and to dream of climbing Denali.

The RMI course was great, I learned a ton, got a lot of experience on steep terrain, and was able to summit Rainier in winter. We learned crevasse rescue, placing protection, crampon techniques, rope travel, self-arrest, etc… The guides on the seminar were fantastic; they were very helpful and willing to share their knowledge. I had some misgivings prior to this seminar regarding guides in general. Those misgivings were put to rest with these guys. Please note that this was a weeklong seminar not their 3-day summit (cattle) climb.

In May of 2006 I climbed Denali with Alpine Ascents International. They too had a 5-day mountaineering course prerequisite (they have their own seminars) to join one of their teams. Learning the basics of winter camping / climbing while on Denali should be avoided. While the altitude is a significant factor in climbing Denali, attitude is a larger factor in my opinion. Being fit, and comfortable in a cold setting for a month is what climbing the West Buttress is all about. If you climb Denali with a guide service they will have their own climb techniques. Demonstrating that you can setup a Z-pulley system is was not required to land on the glacier.

I believe that the prerequisite required to climb Denali (with a guides service) is similar to going to college. It not so much what you learned, it’s that you’ve proved your commitment, and have the basic skills to climb.

A side note: if you are considering climbing Denali with a guide service, Alpine Ascents International is with out question the premier guides service on the mountain.

 

[jrbren]

Altitude is a funny thing...its one of the most overated and underated aspects to climbing. <note: by altitude I mean 10-20K ft, 20+ is a different issue, I would call "extreme altitude">

I believe it is underrated. I would never say it is overrated. I would not advise going straight to 6000meters without trying some lower peaks first. I just got back from a month Nepal in an attempt to climb 6000meter peaks. I hit a hard ceiling around 5300-5500meters every time I would approach that altitude and never made it any higher. As soon as I got down to 4500meters I was fine again. Not sick, just real tired, like I had never worked out in my life and needed to be carried away. I did not "feel drunk", but in one case could not walk without falling over either. It was just weird, so I aborted that climb. Even in my sleeping bag rest did not help, I would be more tired after resting at altitude. I would get winded just laying there. Altitude needs to be taken very seriously and kills. I suspect your "underrated" statement is based on your physiology adapts well to altitude. I believe I was well prepared at low altitudes, I had done much hiking around here in the weeks leading up to the trip without difficulty, including Nippletop slide, Basin/Saddleback/Gothics, Armstrong/Wolfjaw day traverse, Mt Madison(NH), and had run a 3:33:xx marathon the month before. I was with a guide service that followed a very gradual acclimatization program (no more then 300meter gain per day on average).

 

[DougPaul]

I hit a hard ceiling around 5300-5500meters every time I would approach that altitude and never made it any higher.

Sir Edmund Hillary developed a hard limit of about 15K ft as he aged.

Some people simply cannot go high or lose the ability to go high.

Doug

 

[Bluethroatedone]

By overated I mean that I know lots of people that don't go into altitude because of all they've read. They believe they are likely to die because so many people die of HACE/HAPE. While I agree that it can be tough and have strong impacts on the body, my point is you are unlikely to die if you listen to your body and stop climbing/head down when you feel like crap. There's no reason for most people to avoid going to altititude, just be smart about it and listen to your body. Its amazing how many 60+ year old people I saw in Nepal at 5000 metres!

The sherpas told us on our trip that the most likely to get Alt. sickness are the young and fit, not the old or out of shape, but the later just don't have the physical ability to push themselves too high too fast....

 

[jrbren]

I have attempted Rainier 3 times with RMI. I would say they have some really good people and would be confidenet they would do a really good job of guiding you to the top of whatever mountain is the subject of the program you sign up for with them. They also appear to be at the high end of the price curve with respect to other guide services. Just be aware there are other options for a guided trip up Rainier or Denali. Shop around first.

I am going to attempt Rainier a 4th time this summer, this time with Alpine Ascents International, because this allow me to see a different route other then DC this time. I did my 6 day glacier travel class with them and summitted Mt. Baker. I consider them a top notch guide service on par or better then with RMI. Tough to compare them too much becasue the programs I took with each were very different. I am sure it would depend on who you get for your guide no matter what company you sign up with.
They also have Denali options, and glacier prep classes in Alaska on the Kahiltna. Check out their classes at:
http://www.alpineascents.com/

Other Denali and Glacier travel guide options:
http://www.alaskamountainguides.com/ (I have no experience with them)

http://www.mountainguides.com/alaskan-ascents.shtml
(George Dunn was the lead guide on my last Rainier attempt, we made it as far as the Crater Rim before turning back due to a lenticular cloud. I think very highly of him. I think he still guides for RMI plus has this business)

Another Denali/Rainier option out of Seattle
http://www.mtnguide.com/

Here is a Vermont option for Glacier training, although I do not see Denali on their list of packaged climbs. These guides have very low overhead and generally customize trips based on interests of the party. I have not climbed with them because I am always on my own looking to tag along with a packaged trip.
http://www.peakexpeditions.com/index.htm

Here is a UK option:
http://www.jagged-globe.co.uk/exp/itinerary/denali.html
They have best website of any guide service, IMHO.

I am sure there are others but these are the links on my bookmarks.

I have zero interest in Denali, too cold for me, but would like to visit Alaska some day. Perhaps climb Mt Bona or Mt Marcus Baker. Hope this helps.

 

[jrbren]

Bluethroatedone- I agree in that context it would be overrated. But I would not use that term. I certainly would recommend anyone who wants to try a big peak over 6000meters to give it a try, but try 4000,5000meter peaks first so as to not set your self up for dissappointment. And more important, make sure you are well educated in AMS, HAPE,HACE and the more prevailent HAFE (High Altitude gas attacks ) ...

 

[Dennis C.]

"******", take a look at some other ideas about Rainier offered awhile back on this 2004 thread : Rainier Experiences

 

[Hampshire]

(George Dunn was the lead guide on my last Rainier attempt, we made it as far as the Crater Rim before turning back due to a lenticular cloud. I think very highly of him. I think he still guides for RMI plus has this business)

George Dunn is the best. He was the lead guide during my RMI winter expedition seminar. George co-owns IMG and now guides on Rainier for Mount Rainier Alpine Guides http://www.rainierguides.com/.

I loved this book. Its the story of a guy who takes RMI's seminar and then climbs Denali with them. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...104-7559653-9063900?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

 

[cbcbd]

The sherpas told us on our trip that the most likely to get Alt. sickness are the young and fit, not the old or out of shape, but the later just don't have the physical ability to push themselves too high too fast....

That's probably because the young and the fit thing that their youth and fitness will give them an advantage at altitude. No one is immune, but everyone responds to altitude differently - at first you just have to go slow and figure out where you stand. I went on a mountaneering trip to Ecuador to peaks from 16K to 20K. One guy was vomiting at a hut at 15K... he took some Diamox for a few days and was unphased at 18K while another guy who was fine at 15K earlier was dry heaving and had minor symptoms of HAPE at 18K. I was lucky and by the 3rd big peak was not even getting headaches above 18K... but you never really know until you try, so go for it

 

[giggy]

I have limited experience with RMI - but it is 100% excellant. I took a one day customized class on glaicer skills and rescue. But in the days on and around rainier - the RMI guys are great - and I think you would be hard-pressed to find a more knowledable experienced group of guides. Many of the other guide services are also great and many of them got their starts as RMI guides.

I would recommend them and we had a few beers with them at the lodge their - and they are good people. I saw no evidecne of that cockiness attitude you hear about. some may disagree with this - but its my opinion on my interaction with them.

I think the people that blast them have to do with being "raced" up the MT. When I was on rainier - I did not see any evidence of this. They move at a solid mountaineering pace - not that fast but not slow - and they have to get up and back in a certain time and to get thru the dicey sections quick. I also think many people who go with RMI do so as their first jaunt in the mts -and don't know how to hike or climb - so they get tired, fall back, don't know their gear, don't know how to regualte temperature, etc... I think most people on VFTT know how to hike, pace, etc.. - so probably not an issue. At least that was my impression.

You will learn from some of the best thats for sure. And I think they way they do things - is always a senior guy on any trip - names you probably heard of if you read any climbing books.

I think they best advice would be show up in the best shape of you life - I don't know you - so this may be a moot point becuase you may be in great shape now -

if you got the cash - go with RMI for what your looking for

 

[beaner]

This is fantastic info. It is great to know there are hikers on this website with such accomplished experiences. Wonder if setting such a high goal will cure me of my klondike, cracker, carbohydrate addiction.

JrBren, I also would sign on with a packaged trip. Thanks for setting such a fine table of choices.

DougPaul, I am 51y.o. so realizing and identifying my altitude ceiling will be an interesting path of discovery.

It's nice to know 60+y.o. did well at 5000Metres, Bluethroatedone.

I won't be setting any land speed records. Key questions are altitude ajustment and being out in the cold for 6days straight. My longest winter expedition to date is soloing 3Days in the Pemi bagging 4K's. My attitude was aggressive in those circumstances. I will be much more measured and responsive on a Raineer expedionary seminar. Obviously proper equipment and an appropriate physical training program are the two elements that I can most control to optimize my performance. I will not give up on altitude limits easily. I am currently 200lbs. Shame on me 'cause I am going to run a marathon in 7weeks. I'll be lucky if I run in 4hours at this weight. Of course it impacts my training. Weight is a huge variable in pulmonary function efficiency. I would strive to drop to 155lbs which would also be my ideal marathon weight if I need to improve my altitude conditioning. At 155lbs. I could easily run a marathon in under 3:30. So these are all great goals. But I think Raineer/Denali/(and dare I say it?) even Everest (Gad! The expense!!!) are the most ultimate motivations. I think I need more motivation than running Boston another time.

First things first, to see if I turn into a wet noodle on Raineer.

What are the symptoms of HAPE/HACE? Initially and more acutely?

 

[cbcbd]

What are the symptoms of HAPE/HACE? Initially and more acutely?

AMS (Acute Mountain Sickness) are the mild symptoms of HACE - that can be headache, weakness, nausea, vomiting and problems sleeping.

HACE is severe AMS - symptoms the same but more extreme since the brain has swelled much more. You begin to see you motor control and rational thought greatly decrease.

HAPE is less common - symptoms include Dyspnea, irritative cough followed with pink sputum, confusion, coma, and eventually death. One test for HAPE that I've seen is having someone lay on their back and ask them to speak... if your lungs are filled with that much fluid you'll have problem speaking.

Both can be rapidly fatal, so if you start seeing mild symptoms of either and you still have a long stay at this altitude or if you have a lot of elevation to hike then the best medicine is to come back down. There are medications that help with each, but it's only really temporary.
There are some medications, like Diamox, that if taken before elevation can trick your body into adapting to high altitude situations before at altitude - but it's recommended to not mess around with those unless necessary.


Good link on altitude sickness:
http://www.ismmed.org/np_altitude_tutorial.htm

 

[HighHorse]

What about AAI? I've heard really good things about them... Anybody with firsthand experience or thoughts?

 

[jrbren]

One other note on RMI, they have a partnership with Climb High where they exchange employees for periods of time and do referrals for each other.
RMI will be doing a slide show at Climb High on February 9th in South Burlington, VT. I do not know if they will be making down to MA, seems like they may want to for advertising purposes, you could check with RMI.

http://www.climbhigh.com/events.html

 

[jrbren]

What about AAI? I've heard really good things about them... Anybody with firsthand experience or thoughts?

Which AAI ? I reference Alpine Ascents International above, they are excellent, IMO. I have no experience with American Alpine Institute. In general I have been happy with all the guide services I have used so far. I am happy to discuss any detialed questions you have about Alpine Ascents International.

 

[DaveSunRa]

******

I did Rainier when I was 51, had been @ 12k and 10k before. However,
that was over twenty years ago. I trained like crazy and
felt very confident about Rainer. Started feeling the lack of O2 at
about 12K. It was a hard climb at lest for me.

 

[HighHorse]

Which AAI ?

Sorry, I was talking about American Alpine Institute.