Wilderness Trail Suitable for Biking?

[spencer]

Dave I agree with 99% of your postings on this subject - but in reading the rule that is posted on the AMC 4000 footer site (see below), the rule actual states that you can use a bike so long a an average 4-wheel drive vechicle such as a jeep could make it with the use of accessories such as a winch.

I think you mean without a winch. If there is a gate, or large rocks blocking a road/trail, you cannot drive the road without a winch.

It seems very simple to me. Sure, if the obstacle were removed, you can drive on the road, but that's not in the spirit.

Why are we arguing about this. If you don't care about lists, it doesn't matter. If you do care about lists, you shouldn't be trying so hard to circumvent the "rules."

spencer

 

[David Metsky]

Bob and Spencer are both correct, I was operating on memory about the passanger car vs 4x4 and got it wrong.

But a seeing eye dog could legally complete the lists, right?

-dave-

 

[spencer]

Yup, seeing eye dogs are allowed in BSP. In fact, on a Chimney Pond trip a couple of years ago, we ran into the blind gentleman who hiked the AT a few years before. He was in the park for a Katahdin climb in March with his family and his pup. They made the summit.

I, of course, should remember his name, but don't. I'm sure someone will remember for me.

spencer

 

[bobandgeri]

I think you may be talking about Bill Irwin

http://www.fred.net/kathy/at/irwin.html

http://www.billirwin.com/

 

[spencer]

Yup, Bill Irwin it is.

Thanks Bob or Geri

spencer

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

"MOUNTAIN BIKING: The increased popularity of mountain bikes apparently makes it necessary to come up with some sort of policy. Please remember that this is a club for hikers; not that we object to trail bikes per se, but we want to preserve the tradition of climbing on foot, not on bikes. In winter we have absolutely forbidden the use of snowmobiles, even when a road is passable to ordinary cars in summer. However, a similar policy on trail bikes seems a bit excessive. Therefore I suggest that we all attempt to live by the following standard: it is acceptable to use bikes on logging roads that are not part of officially maintained trails if the road would be fairly easily passable to an average four-wheel-drive vehicle (not an ATV) without "heroic measures" such as winches. If you think a jeep might not make it, then please walk. If everyone can be reasonable about self-enforcing this standard then I won't be forced to come up with more excruciating technicalities."

The Lincoln Woods Trail and Livermore Road are not logging roads and they are maintained trails. So what's to debate?

Edited because I can't speel

 

[Sherpa John]

I agree with Darren...

If the AMC is going to run an official club with rules and by-laws... then the rules on their website and in other literature,, needs to be printed less care-free and sarcasticlly and more in terms that explains each and every rules properly and correctly so that it leaves no room for debate.

 

[Double Bow]

While I agree that things should be better spelled out as far as the rules go, the Four Thousand Footer Committee is sort of seperate from the AMC and so they are a bit more... free-form. This is a large part of the reason things are not as regimented as we might like them to be from this volunteer group.

Unfortunately, seven people can read the same thing and have seven different interpretations (see Reputation thread). Ultimately however, there is only one correct answer to this question and, clear or not, it's that bikes can only be used on roads that cars/trucks can legaly drive on.

 

[Papa Bear]

... needs to be printed less care-free and sarcasticlly and more in terms that explains each and every rules properly and correctly so that it leaves no room for debate.

Actually it's quite the opposite (or as Obi Wan would say "Only a Sith would think in absolutes" ). Remember, it's the debate that keeps this site active and enjoyable.

 

[forestgnome]

I'm wondering if the approach trail to Owl's Head along Wilderness Trail is suitable for mountain biking.

Kurchian,

The answer is...YES!!! It's definately a good idea to bike as far as the wilderness boundary, rules and lists aside, if you're just there for the hike.

Bike as far as the bridge. You'll see other bikes chained to a post. I just ditch my old clunker in the brush. On the way out you can coast all the way to the truck. My feet love that part

 

[RoySwkr]

I ask again, if you can't bike down the Wilderness "trail" or the Livermore ROAD according to the rules, then what can you bike down? There is no point to having a rule if it does not apply to any situation. I can not think of any other situation to apply this rule to, so I am led to believe that this rule applies to these cases.

I believe it originally came from some people with an ordinary car that wanted to mountain-bike logging roads in Maine that were routinely driven with 4wd but were banned by a "no mountain bike" rule. It is definitely NOT meant to apply to roads you think are too rough for your 4wd or to gated roads. In fact we have had this discussion about no biking on gated roads before when you must have been away.

Yes, the wording could be clearer but I think it was Gene that wrote it, not Eric.

ps: as for the original question, yes, the Wilderness trail would be very easy for biking.

I have done the Wilderness Trail on a 3-speed all the way to Thoreau Falls junction (back when it was legal) and found it annoying to bounce over all the RR ties, I would not do it again.

 

[chomp]

Mountain bike the Lincoln Woods Trail, do the 4000 footers and don't worry about the recognition.

Actually, there is a way to mountain bike in and out and STILL be an official 4000 footer in the eyes of the AMC.

As much as I am a knob-head (knobby tires that is), I have to agree with Dave. The phrase: "...that are not part of officially maintained trails..." pretty much locks it up. Lincoln Woods is an officially maintained trail. Therefore, while you can legally mountain bike in to the 3 mile mark, that would exclude any peak that you hike from counting on an official 4000 footer list, as defined by the AMC.

HOWEVER, there is a pretty good sized loophole regarding the East Branch Loophole. The 26th White Mountain Guide officially refers to this route as the East Branch Truck Road (FR 87). While cars are no longer allowed on this ROAD, it still still designated as such. It is not a maintained trail, but rather a maintained road. The White Mountain Guide never calls this a trail, but rather refers to it as a road on several occasions, going as far to say that it is maintained for vehicle use, but allows pedestrian traffic.

By using the AMC rules, I would say that it is perfectly OK to mountain bike on the East Branch Truck Road, stash your bike at the Wilderness bounds, ford the Pemi, and head on to Owl's Head. Of course, this is all probably more work than just hiking the 3 miles in on the Lincoln Woods Trail, but would it be as much fun? Of course, all this only matters if you want to apply for recognition on the official 4000 footer list - something that about half of the 4000 footers have never done, myself included.

Either way, enjoy!

Oh, and if you want a really fun mountain bike, try heading up to Greely Ponds from Livermore. You have to stop at the Scenic Area sign about .5 miles from the pond, but you can get most of the way in there. The ride down looks like great fun.

 

[darren]

Nice info Chomp! I find that pretty darn funny.

As for biking into Greely Ponds, you are right, it is a blast. I have hiked to Greely Ponds from the Kanc, from Livermore, and via the Osceolas. I've snow shoed into them, and I've xc skied into them. But, by far, the most fun I have had going there was mountain biking into them via Livermore Rd. You can actually bike to within 1/4 mile of the lower pond (wilderness boundary). Hop off the bike from there and it's a quick walk to the ponds for a nice view and break. You can ride the whole route, there aren't really any hike a bike sections at all. The ride out is sweet, sweet, sweet!

It is all about what you want to do. As you say, hike them, bike them, do what ever you want to do and dont worry about someone else's list.

- darren

 

[Kurchian]

I never suspected that my innocent question would provke so much debate!

Now that I understand that the Wilderness boundaries preclude biking I don't think that saving 3 miles each way is really worth it.

However, the discussion of whether bicycling on the trail would negate the 4000' peak bagging is an interesting one. I hope an official from the 4000' Committee will weigh in on this. I can understand how people can have different interpretations of the verbage in the guidelines. Frankly, I was under the impression that since the trail was "driveable" then it would be acceptable as "bikeable", in terms of the 4000' guidelines. But I would certainly defer to the Committee people on this. After all, they wrote it and they presumably have a clear answer to this question.

 

[bobmak]

The guy who was chairman of the 4000-footer club a couple people before Gene refused to register dogs so there is no way of knowing how many have done the NH4K, but I'll bet none have done so legally in the past 10 years as pets are not allowed in Franconia Notch SP http://www.franconianotchstatepark.com/ and so you would need to bushwhack up Cannon. [Note: I queried the Parks Dept about this rule and they said it's generally not enforced, unlike Monadnock.]

Jeez.... don't say anything about this rule to my pup Chica! She thinks she can count this one on her list!!!

 

[David Metsky]

However, the discussion of whether bicycling on the trail would negate the 4000' peak bagging is an interesting one. I hope an official from the 4000' Committee will weigh in on this. I can understand how people can have different interpretations of the verbage in the guidelines. Frankly, I was under the impression that since the trail was "driveable" then it would be acceptable as "bikeable", in terms of the 4000' guidelines.

They have weighed in on this many times, and a bike is not allowed on the Lincoln Woods trail. The rules clearly state that you can't take a bike on a maintained trail, so it would rule this out pretty clearly. The East Side Road is an interesting point, but as it's not a logging road I think it violates the spirit and letter of the rules.

The basic point is that the 4000'er Committee is about hiking, not biking. You shouldn't be using a bike once you hit the trailhead.

-dave-

 

[darren]

They have weighed in on this many times
-dave-

But never publicly. Hence the confusion. If you do not think there is confusion, reread this entire thread. There are a dozen different people with a dozen different ideas of what that rule means. Bottom line is that they need to make the rule more clear.

- darren

 

[David Metsky]

But never publicly.

Actually they have, a few times on the AMC BBS. Gene was very clear about the issue with bikes. I understand the confusion and I agree that the FAQ could be clearer, but they have talked publicly about this several times. I wish I had saved the thread from over there, alas the archives are long gone.

Since Eric Savage is now the public face of the 4000'er Committee, perhaps we can get him to write up an official response.

-dave-

 

[chomp]

You shouldn't be using a bike once you hit the trailhead.

Exactly. I offer this quote from the 4000 footer website:


Q. What are the rules for climbing 4000 footers?

A. The basic rule is very simple: You must climb (on foot!) to and from the summit of each peak on the list. In winter skis and snowshoes are both allowed.

For peaks with trails starting at maintained roads the rule is simple: Drive to the trailhead then walk (note that you are not allowed to use the auto roads on Mts Washington, Mansfield and Equinox).


Since the East Branch Forest Road is, by AMC definitions, a maintained road, then mountain biking along this stretch should be perfectly ok according to their own rules.

 

[Blue]

once you experience the hypnotic clambake of trudging back on that three-mile stretch after a 20-mile+ day hike, you'll want to bike or ski that stretch every time

Stop! Owl's Head is my 48th... no one will want to go with me if they know about that 3 mile stretch!