forestgnome
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ChrisB said:
No need
Wilderness Trail Suitable for Biking?
- Thread starter Kurchian
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Tom Rankin
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RoySwkr said:
No, they are not, many of them are very avid peak baggers, to hear them tell it at the FTFC Dinner last April. The retiring president has done over 400 of the 770's in Winter!
Raymond
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Tastes great! Less filling!
This back-and-forth reminds me of when I was a kid and my friends were trying to teach me the rules of hockey.
"You can't throw the puck into the net."
"What if I just swat it in?"
"That doesn't count either."
"What if I swat it so it deflects off my stick, THEN it goes in the net?"
Etcetera.
This back-and-forth reminds me of when I was a kid and my friends were trying to teach me the rules of hockey.
"You can't throw the puck into the net."
"What if I just swat it in?"
"That doesn't count either."
"What if I swat it so it deflects off my stick, THEN it goes in the net?"
Etcetera.
RoySwkr
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I know the guy who wrote the rule. As he has a Masters in English I agree with Darren that he should have written it better.chomp said:
Nothing, as long as you don't expect others to recognize your interpretation of completion or any speed records you set by bending the rules. It would not harm me in any way if you claim a 4K patch without leaving your couch by reading trip reports on the web and saying that's the same as going there, just don't expect the AMC to give you a patch for it
Seriously, I think it wouldn't count, because the road is gated and you couldn't drive a car on it that day. Yet another place where the rule is unclear and apparently misinterpreted.
Yes, all of them have climbed the NH4K, most or all in winter. But there are 9 members of the committee, of whom one is the treasurer and keeps the books and one is the secretary and handles correspondence. At least one more does trail maintenance in the name of the 4K club. Do the others do anything more than sign certificates? I think that instead of voting people in based on past accomplishments they should select people with time to spend on current projects. And someone in the past year should have been delegated to deal with the Owls Head situation and someone else with unconfusing the rules.anonymous said:
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Eric Savage
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Heeeeeere's Eric
Wow, I don't know where to start (and more dangerously, have no idea where to end )
As many of you probably recognize, much of the text on the website is taken directly from the informational letter that we send out. The point has been well made that what one person considers clearly written might well be considered ambiguous by someone else. I am in the process of rewriting the letter and will be updating the website, when necessary, as that happens. (If the eloquence of a Master of English doesn't work maybe I can bring the precision of a mathematician to bear.)
I do appreciate the feedback on the website (too bad I wasn't hooked into VFTT when I first put it together) and will do my best to incorporate reasonable suggestions. Any specific comments can be directed to my FTFC email address [email protected]. The rules about biking are certainly among the most controversial topics. I agree with Darren that the rules should be publicly stated and as clear as possible but I'm sure we all realize that there will always be some contingency that we haven't thought of yet. Part of the problem may be that some of the initial responses to situations, like the increased use of mountain bikes, have not matured into organized, systematic rules. I hope I can fix some of that. Before anyone starts to respond to any of the following with something to the effect of "why doesn't it say that in the letter/on the website" let me say ahead of time "Yes, you're right, good point." If you really find it more helpful than what's there already, please let me know (and let me know - nicely, please - if it isn't).
Keep in mind that the 4000 Footer Club is intended to be a hiking club. The spirit/intent of the mountain bike policy is to allow people to replace car travel with bike travel, not to replace foot travel. For our recognition, you are allowed to use bikes on any road that is free, legally accessible by car/truck (without "heroic measures") and consistently open to the general public during the time of year in which the trip takes place. The "free" part eliminates the Auto Road on Washington, for example, the "general public" part eliminates those who have exclusive access to keys to certain gates.
The rules do clearly state that you may not use a bike on any official hiking trail whether or not it is otherwise legal to do so. The Lincoln Woods/Wilderness, Livermore and Moosilauke Carriage Road Trails (and many others) are definitely covered by this rule.
As was conjectured in previous posts, the comments about passability of roads was primarily intended to cover the logging roads in Maine and access routes to a few other trailless peaks.
One way bikes might be used is for 'car' spotting when there is only one vehicle in the party.
I can see I will have to break this into a few posts...
Wow, I don't know where to start (and more dangerously, have no idea where to end
)As many of you probably recognize, much of the text on the website is taken directly from the informational letter that we send out. The point has been well made that what one person considers clearly written might well be considered ambiguous by someone else. I am in the process of rewriting the letter and will be updating the website, when necessary, as that happens. (If the eloquence of a Master of English doesn't work maybe I can bring the precision of a mathematician to bear.)
I do appreciate the feedback on the website (too bad I wasn't hooked into VFTT when I first put it together) and will do my best to incorporate reasonable suggestions. Any specific comments can be directed to my FTFC email address [email protected]. The rules about biking are certainly among the most controversial topics. I agree with Darren that the rules should be publicly stated and as clear as possible but I'm sure we all realize that there will always be some contingency that we haven't thought of yet. Part of the problem may be that some of the initial responses to situations, like the increased use of mountain bikes, have not matured into organized, systematic rules. I hope I can fix some of that. Before anyone starts to respond to any of the following with something to the effect of "why doesn't it say that in the letter/on the website" let me say ahead of time "Yes, you're right, good point." If you really find it more helpful than what's there already, please let me know (and let me know - nicely, please - if it isn't).
Keep in mind that the 4000 Footer Club is intended to be a hiking club. The spirit/intent of the mountain bike policy is to allow people to replace car travel with bike travel, not to replace foot travel. For our recognition, you are allowed to use bikes on any road that is free, legally accessible by car/truck (without "heroic measures") and consistently open to the general public during the time of year in which the trip takes place. The "free" part eliminates the Auto Road on Washington, for example, the "general public" part eliminates those who have exclusive access to keys to certain gates.
The rules do clearly state that you may not use a bike on any official hiking trail whether or not it is otherwise legal to do so. The Lincoln Woods/Wilderness, Livermore and Moosilauke Carriage Road Trails (and many others) are definitely covered by this rule.
As was conjectured in previous posts, the comments about passability of roads was primarily intended to cover the logging roads in Maine and access routes to a few other trailless peaks.
One way bikes might be used is for 'car' spotting when there is only one vehicle in the party.
I can see I will have to break this into a few posts...
Eric Savage
New member
More Notes
Bear with me now as I try to respond to some of the other issues brought out here (some addressing me personally )
Biking the East Branch Truck Road is not an issue that we have discussed specifically, though now I suppose we'll have to. We were trying to avoid that kind of road by road approach - maybe that was too optimistic.
While I did talk to a couple of hikers on Owls Head (as reported by Double Bow) and did mention that I was the author of the website on which they claimed to have read that riding the Wilderness Trail was OK, I don't believe I was brash enough to tell them that they had to do it over again. That was actually when I began to wonder if the website wasn't as clear as we wanted it to be. (I even thought about suggesting, if they really were misled by the official website, that we could call it even if they walked their bikes back to the car.) Ultimately we work on the honor system and each person is subject to their own conscience and/or that of those who know the real story.
If I ever used the term mechanical device or advantage in a conversation it was a mistake on my part as I know just enough about physics/engineering to know that I would be opening myself up to just that kind of nitpicking. If it is written down somewhere, that was defintely not me.
I do apologize that the website has been somewhat neglected. For a long time, the focus was on getting the applications processed and (naturally, given that we were trying to transition the job) we had a record number of them (over 50% above normal). Now I am learning/struggling through the process of gearing up for a new year of application processing, including rewrites of various documents.
The Four Thousand Footer Committee is indeed in the process of a much larger transition from a sort of honorary society where one person was doing most of the work. Though we do still look for people with a demonstrated commitment to peakbagging, most of the members now have specific duties and all are expected to contribute. Still, my job is the largest and there is only so much I can spin off (and it may take some time to figure out exactly what). If you're interested in the details of the Committee's work, there is talk of featuring us in a future article in the AMC Outdoors magazine (non-members and/or non-fans may be able to find it in the local library or maybe we'll be able to get a link on our website).
Bear with me now as I try to respond to some of the other issues brought out here (some addressing me personally
)Biking the East Branch Truck Road is not an issue that we have discussed specifically, though now I suppose we'll have to. We were trying to avoid that kind of road by road approach - maybe that was too optimistic.
While I did talk to a couple of hikers on Owls Head (as reported by Double Bow) and did mention that I was the author of the website on which they claimed to have read that riding the Wilderness Trail was OK, I don't believe I was brash enough to tell them that they had to do it over again. That was actually when I began to wonder if the website wasn't as clear as we wanted it to be. (I even thought about suggesting, if they really were misled by the official website, that we could call it even if they walked their bikes back to the car.) Ultimately we work on the honor system and each person is subject to their own conscience and/or that of those who know the real story.
If I ever used the term mechanical device or advantage in a conversation it was a mistake on my part as I know just enough about physics/engineering to know that I would be opening myself up to just that kind of nitpicking. If it is written down somewhere, that was defintely not me.
I do apologize that the website has been somewhat neglected. For a long time, the focus was on getting the applications processed and (naturally, given that we were trying to transition the job) we had a record number of them (over 50% above normal). Now I am learning/struggling through the process of gearing up for a new year of application processing, including rewrites of various documents.
The Four Thousand Footer Committee is indeed in the process of a much larger transition from a sort of honorary society where one person was doing most of the work. Though we do still look for people with a demonstrated commitment to peakbagging, most of the members now have specific duties and all are expected to contribute. Still, my job is the largest and there is only so much I can spin off (and it may take some time to figure out exactly what). If you're interested in the details of the Committee's work, there is talk of featuring us in a future article in the AMC Outdoors magazine (non-members and/or non-fans may be able to find it in the local library or maybe we'll be able to get a link on our website).
Eric Savage
New member
chomp said:Its not just that 3 miles stretch... its the fact that 16 of the 18 mile hike to do Owls Head is, for most people, uninteresting. And boring. And tedious.
But I am sure that YOU will love it. Really.
Having read the comments of many people who have finished on Owls Head, I have to disagree that 'most' find it uninteresting. If you like (a lot of) easy walking and the babbling of mountain brooks, you might find it quite a pleasant change of pace. Granted, not many people travel those trails just for that experience (and that last mile is no picnic). It does seem to separate people into those who hate it and those who are pleasantly surprised by how much they like it (myself being in the latter category - and having willingly returned twice) but you may not know which group you're in until you try it.
GeorgeFitch
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Nicely put.Eric Savage said:
Kurchian
Member
As the original poster of "the question" I now have my answer.
Most importantly, I wish to thank Eric and the 4000' Committee for their countless hours of volunteer work. As the entire 4000' recognition is based on the honor system it is a shame that we have to be so technical with its regulations. But, is is reassuring to know that there are people with such high character facilitating this process.
Thank you!
Most importantly, I wish to thank Eric and the 4000' Committee for their countless hours of volunteer work. As the entire 4000' recognition is based on the honor system it is a shame that we have to be so technical with its regulations. But, is is reassuring to know that there are people with such high character facilitating this process.
Thank you!
Eric Savage said:
Wow, seven pages on a hiking forum on how to avoid hiking.
Eric Savage said:
I have use a bike for car spotting at times but probably more times have just walked the road or whatever back to my car. Road walks are quite interesting in themselves.
Thank you, Eric, for posting.
chomp
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Eric -
Thanks for providing a detail response to this topic. I first want to clear up my statement on the "death march" to Owl's Head. I think that it is probably the nicest 4000 footer to do with someone else, since you can walk side-by-side and chat while looking at the river. However, doing it alone can be tedious. Regardless, I don't really believe that it is aweful or anything like that.
However, if you have time, I do have a question. I have always understood the rule restricting the use of mountain bikes. While I personally think that those first three miles on-route to Owl's Head should be the exception to the rule, I understand the rule and agree with it.
However, I have never understood the rule about traveling over forest roads in winter. Snowmobiles are completly banned - why? I don't understand why it is perfectly OK to drive a car to the trailhead, but its not OK to drive a snowmobile to the trailhead. If anything, the snowmobile is doing less damage to the environment than a car, especially if it is a 4-stroke. It just seems an odd rule that driving one type of mechanical vehicle is OK, while driving another type of mechanical vehicle is not OK. I would be interested to hear the reasoning behind this.
In addition, and how it connects to this discussion, is that why is it not allowable to ride a mtn bike over a frozen snowmobile trail to the trailhead? At least to me, it seems that using a mtn bike just to get to the trailhead would be OK. Yet, from your response, I gather that it is not OK since the road is gated.
Anyway, I was just curious about the reasoning for these decisions. Thanks for addressing this subject, Eric.
Thanks for providing a detail response to this topic. I first want to clear up my statement on the "death march" to Owl's Head. I think that it is probably the nicest 4000 footer to do with someone else, since you can walk side-by-side and chat while looking at the river. However, doing it alone can be tedious. Regardless, I don't really believe that it is aweful or anything like that.
However, if you have time, I do have a question. I have always understood the rule restricting the use of mountain bikes. While I personally think that those first three miles on-route to Owl's Head should be the exception to the rule, I understand the rule and agree with it.
However, I have never understood the rule about traveling over forest roads in winter. Snowmobiles are completly banned - why? I don't understand why it is perfectly OK to drive a car to the trailhead, but its not OK to drive a snowmobile to the trailhead. If anything, the snowmobile is doing less damage to the environment than a car, especially if it is a 4-stroke. It just seems an odd rule that driving one type of mechanical vehicle is OK, while driving another type of mechanical vehicle is not OK. I would be interested to hear the reasoning behind this.
In addition, and how it connects to this discussion, is that why is it not allowable to ride a mtn bike over a frozen snowmobile trail to the trailhead? At least to me, it seems that using a mtn bike just to get to the trailhead would be OK. Yet, from your response, I gather that it is not OK since the road is gated.
Anyway, I was just curious about the reasoning for these decisions. Thanks for addressing this subject, Eric.
GeorgeFitch
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Nice observation!chomp said:
Interesting. I was wondering this myself. In the early '70s it was considered acceptable practice to hitch a ride with snowmobilers in Baxter State Park for the purpose of bagging North Brother. The reasoning being that one would drive the road in a car in the summertime. But if this is the rule that is cool with me. Skiing or snowshoeing the road adds to the winter challenge and can certainly be an enjoyable trip in itself.chomp said:
darren said:
I agree with this statement but probably not for the reason that you intended.
Why do club owners "need to make them more clear"? If they want to maintain a club with rules that are less than clear, I think that is their business, no? Going back to an anology that we all have experience with, if an owner of a moderated web forum chooses to poorly define the charter of his or her forum and it's related moderation decisions, why should he or she be compelled to change things if he or she doesn't want to?
The one reason I do agree with your statement is that the owners, by definition, are the only ones who *can* make the changes. That is, if there is going to be change, it is the owners who have to make it. Again, going back to my analogy, people might speak out about a web forum's charter or moderation policy till the cows come home but at the end of the day, the only person who is in a position to make a change is the forum owner. Same applies to this club. Folks on the outside can holler all they want. It's a decision for the club's officers to decide on.
darren said:
Yup. And I feel that the majority of misunderstandings in moderated forums that lead to endless meta-discussions could be handled be with clearer forum charters and posting rules. But, I'm not holding my breath.
jjmcgo
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Raymond wrote:
"What if I swat it so it deflects off my stick, THEN it goes in the net?"
That's a goal.
"What if I swat it so it deflects off my stick, THEN it goes in the net?"
That's a goal.
I personally think that part of the allure of the winter list is that the peaks are that much harder to get to by the longer distances of the closed roads. The result is that much more of a impressive accomplishment and bragging right.
NH_Mtn_Hiker
New member
Exactly!MichaelJ said:
Besides, It's only legal to take a bike down the road when it's legal to drive it. If the road is gated why should you be allowed to take a bike if you aren't allowed to drive it....understand...I'm not sure if I do now.
RoySwkr
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The previous topic on this is http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6391&page=2&pp=15chomp said:
This rule predates Eric, he is just stuck discussing it
The reasoning was that since in general the hiking community does not wish to encourage snowmobiling (exception if you are doing a long hike after a big storm , they did not wish to encourage hikers to use them and possibly attract non-hiking snowmobilers.As George Fitch said, many on the early NE4KW completers used snowmobiles in Baxter Park, but their feeling was that it took about as much effort as hiking and certainly Baxter Park is better off with no more snowmobiles at Chimney Pond.
darren
Poobah Emeritus
Eric Savage said:
Ah....excellent. I am an engineer, so that is probably why I had a problem with the Master of English version.
Eric - first I would like to thank you for taking the time to address this issue here and for working on updating your paper/web version of the rules.
And now I must make a confession. After 10+ years of running this site, I have to admit that I have seen this topic more times than I can count and I just couldn't take it anymore. As most of my friends know, I "don't care about the list". By that I mean that I appreciate the history of it and everyone that is associated with it, but for me personally, it doesn't really 'matter' to me. I have my own "lists" and I have my own goals and for some reason I have always just cared about the stuff I want to do and not what someone else suggests that I do. I am not taking anything away from the list chasers. Not by any means. Everyone has their personal goals. Everyone has a right to them. The fact that we are happy in the woods is all that matters.
So, if I don't care about the list, then why did I go off on my tirade? Here is the confession. I just couldn't take the mtn bike debate any longer. Postholes, dogs, guns, and mtn bike / 4k list have to be the 4 most repeated debates on this site and many others since the dawn of the internet. And I just couldn't take it anymore. I knew that if I did not let this thread die (thanks to Chomp for helping me out on this) that maybe just maybe we could get something done about it.
So, big time thanks to Eric for stepping up to the plate. The crap has been beaten out of this horse for years and now, finally, the horse is empty.
Hallelujah!!!!
And then there were 3....
- darren
ps: One other thing, Eric is right of course about the 4k club being a hiking club. As a club, they get to make the rules. They make the rules and if you choose to join or participate in the club then you must follow the rules. Plain and simple. (sound familiar?)
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