Windmills getting closer to the Whites - second and third Plymouth-area wind farms

[David Metsky]

Moderator Note

All three projects (one built, two proposed) are sending millions of our tax dollars to Spain.

Let's focus on the hiking and outdoors relevant portions of this subject.

 

[funkyfreddy]

I'm very disappointed that hikers, especially hikers..... would be willing to industrialize and rip down forest areas for a few megawatts of power

It never ceases to amaze me how destructive and short sighted we are as a species....

 

[funkyfreddy]

http://www.aweo.org/problemwithwind.html

 

[rocket21]

All three projects (one built, two proposed) are sending millions of our tax dollars to Spain.

Moderator Note


Let's focus on the hiking and outdoors relevant portions of this subject.

I think it's entirely relevant to the subject. I guess I'll stop posting about this subject.

 

[DougPaul]

It never ceases to amaze me how destructive and short sighted we are as a species....

I gave up being amazed long ago--short-term and local benefit generally win over long-term and global benefit. Wind power fits right in...

http://www.aweo.org/problemwithwind.html

Good ref--even if only half of it is true, it is still damning.

Doug

 

[Jazzbo]

Moderator Note


Let's focus on the hiking and outdoors relevant portions of this subject.

Now we have a name. Spruce Ridge project endangers a number of hiking trails in wild area adjacent to Mt Cardigan which is a major hiking mecca for all levels of hikers. For many folks Mt Cardigan is the one hike they do per year. Adopting the name Spruce Ridge appears to imply they may not be going after Oregan Mt, but the wind farm will be less than half mile from Oregon Mt and the Elwell Trail. All this technical stuff may seem off topic, but must be discussed in order for people to make informed decisions as to whether or not to fight this project (to whatever extent required).

I have no idea where Wild Meadows project stands in permit process, but it sounds like close to a done deal from my cursury research. In event is as good as permitted then one might conclude that that is enough wind power development for this area particularly as it impacts Mt Cardigan Reservation lands AMC and State. Wild Meadows should be the last straw for this locality.

Unfortuanately Spruce Ridge may be a ploy by Maxam to encourage the state of NH to purchase development rights or something along those lines to protect this resource. Maybe that is not such a bad idea. Similar to when State of NH purchased the old ski area across from Pack Monadnock state park.

 

[peakbagger]

I do get a bit of chuckle by the number of postings in this thread when the proposed Jericho Wind Power Project In Berlin is going to be directly in close view of the Northern Presidentials, the Kilkenny Ridge trail and the western Mahoosucs, yet few comments for or against have been made to the prior post on this project. It does seem typical that NIMBY is alive and well in New England hiking community with the Jericho project out of sight and out of mind despite having as significant impacts..

 

[erugs]

I was out on an errand early afternoon yesterday and heard a brief portion of a story on NH Public Radio about wind energy in New Hampshire. It made mention of the number of pollution from automobiles that wind power was responsible for negating. Unfortunately, I couldn't listen so don't have more details and I made a brief search of the radio station's programming just now, but find no reference to it. Did anyone else catch it? For all of us who have to travel to do our best hiking, it would be interesting to know more.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Wind power to charge your electric car during periods when it is windy sounds like it would have a net benefit, i.e., no corresponding backup power plant needs to be online. Of course the issue is with redundant transmission infrastructure. But, it could work if you had a wind or solar charger at your house or at your place of employment.

Tim
p.s. or you could ride your bike to work

 

[peakbagger]

I knew if I looked around I could find this

Wind resource map for NH


http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/maps_template.asp?stateab=nh

Looks like a lot of good sites in the whites

The wind developers probably have access to even better maps

 

[peakbagger]

Another interesting article, not specific to the whites, but some of the background and comments about end of the PTCs would be of interest.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/26/maine-wind-power-goals_n_2365049.html

 

[peakbagger]

By the way folks, the Production Tax Creidt for Windturbines was renewed as part fo the fiscal cliff deal so the developers are going to be rushing to tak advantage of the extension.

 

[Dave Bear]

You can not talk about individual aspects of the wind energy issue without talking about the whole subject. They can and will affect our landscape and how we see our mountains. This is hiking related. They can and will refuel the need for heavier transmission lines similiar to the Northern Pass lines. This is hiking related. They are less than honest about how green the wind energy is and its contribution to offsetting environmental concerns. This should be related for any environmentally concious hikers. Here is a scientific perspective, though biased it is definitely enlightening and worth spending the time to thoroughly examine. This was done by an individual whom initially was pro wind energy, and is environmentally concerned and a member of hiking and outdoor clubs. I spent much of Tuesday afternoon on it and the meat and potatoes is in the middle of the presentation with very good graphical data!

http://www.slideshare.net/JohnDroz/energy-presentationkey-presentation

 

[marnof]

Wind power to charge your electric car during periods when it is windy sounds like it would have a net benefit, i.e., no corresponding backup power plant needs to be online. Of course the issue is with redundant transmission infrastructure. But, it could work if you had a wind or solar charger at your house or at your place of employment.

Tim
p.s. or you could ride your bike to work

My wife's relative in PA manufactures/retails windmills for household electric generation, and they can be set up to feed excess power back to the grid, I believe. I'd be interested in getting one, but I don't think it would fly too well in my neighborhood--much better for rural settings than the suburbs. They need to be elevated to a certain height and do make some noise, I think. Not too much of an issue for me, but I can imagine the neighbors would have something to say about it.

 

[DougPaul]

My wife's relative in PA manufactures/retails windmills for household electric generation, and they can be set up to feed excess power back to the grid, I believe.

This may sound good but it destabilizes the grid and may result in a net increase in the fuel usage of the grid.

Tim's point is that with local loads (eg a local battery bank or electric car battery) that are not connected to the grid one can reap the benefits of wind power without its damaging effects on the grid. (Solar works here too.)

Doug

 

[marnof]

This may sound good but it destabilizes the grid and may result in a net increase in the fuel usage of the grid.

Tim's point is that with local loads (eg a local battery bank or electric car battery) that are not connected to the grid one can reap the benefits of wind power without its damaging effects on the grid. (Solar works here too.)

Doug

That sounds like the scenario that was being marketed: storing accumulated energy in battery banks--but I thought I recalled an option to sell back excess energy, depending on cooperation with local utilities, of course. That option doesn't appeal much to me anyway.

Mark

 

[Paradox]

wind power, blah, blah, blah....
Tim
p.s. Or you could ride your bike to work :d

.
.
.
.
Doh!

 

[DougPaul]

That sounds like the scenario that was being marketed: storing accumulated energy in battery banks--but I thought I recalled an option to sell back excess energy, depending on cooperation with local utilities, of course. That option doesn't appeal much to me anyway.

The option is great for the wind/solar operators, but not so good for the utilities and grid operators who have to manage the additional (often small) sources and are on the hook to pay for the decreases in efficiency inflicted on their own facilities.

Doug

 

[RoySwkr]

Wind power to charge your electric car during periods when it is windy sounds like it would have a net benefit, i.e., no corresponding backup power plant needs to be online. Of course the issue is with redundant transmission infrastructure. But, it could work if you had a wind or solar charger at your house or at your place of employment.

DP and I have read about a plan to use everyone's electric car as a distributed battery, i.e. the utility could draw it down during peak loads or during lulls in the wind and fill it back up when excess power was available. Of course the system would need to know when you needed your car recharged so you could drive it. Some complicated control circuits here but such things are getting cheaper all the time.

Awhile ago I talked to a guy who bought a windmill and solar panels so as to have no net carbon footprint, but filling his basement with lead-acid car batteries was not a good system. He went to net metering with his utility which in his case was perhaps good for both as his peak load was in spring doing reverse osmosis of maple sap, a time when the utility probably had surplus power, yet it could draw from him on sunny days with cooling loads or windy days which might have heating loads.

 

[Jazzbo]

You can not talk about individual aspects of the wind energy issue without talking about the whole subject. They can and will affect our landscape and how we see our mountains. This is hiking related. They can and will refuel the need for heavier transmission lines similiar to the Northern Pass lines. This is hiking related. They are less than honest about how green the wind energy is and its contribution to offsetting environmental concerns. This should be related for any environmentally concious hikers. Here is a scientific perspective, though biased it is definitely enlightening and worth spending the time to thoroughly examine. This was done by an individual whom initially was pro wind energy, and is environmentally concerned and a member of hiking and outdoor clubs. I spent much of Tuesday afternoon on it and the meat and potatoes is in the middle of the presentation with very good graphical data!

http://www.slideshare.net/JohnDroz/energy-presentationkey-presentation

Dave

Thanks for that link to John Droz slideshow. As a fellow mechanical engineer I can see it is very well done. I like all of the Thomas Paine quotes. Unfortunately it goes against conventional thinking and people who agree with him will always be viewed as crackpots. Reminds my of my current readings about Stalinist Russia. I can see windpower will have profound enviromental impact (wherever it goes be it mountains or offshore or in middle of the plains) and makes no sense from economical, environmental, or technical reasons. It is largely wind power lobbyist and environmental lobbyist driven with generous helping of Group Think and lack of skepticism in general population.

Ray