Windmills getting closer to the Whites - second and third Plymouth-area wind farms

[DougPaul]

DP and I have read about a plan to use everyone's electric car as a distributed battery, i.e. the utility could draw it down during peak loads or during lulls in the wind and fill it back up when excess power was available. Of course the system would need to know when you needed your car recharged so you could drive it. Some complicated control circuits here but such things are getting cheaper all the time.

This scheme also neglects the cost to the consumer of the wear and tear on the car battery. (The wear and tear will shorten the life of the battery.)

The costs of the control isn't just the hardware--it also includes the difficulty of managing a more complicated system. Utilities generally prefer a smaller number of larger facilities (ie generation units on the order of 1 GW (GW=1 million KW))--car batteries can consume and produce ~100 KW so a rather large number is required to store a meaningful amount of energy.

For reference: 100 KiloWatts =134 horsepower

Doug

 

[Dave Bear]

Hey Jazzbo thanks for taking some time to view it! I also like his comments about critical thinking and being open minded while using your ability to think. Too much of the time critical thinking is set aside by propaganda and the masses follow the lines like sheep to slaughter! Its not that the general population wants to do the wrong thing to our mountains and environment, it's that they will stay uninformed due to preconceived notion of what is best! Be informed folks and happy trails without acres of whining machinery!

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Here is a scientific perspective, though biased it is definitely enlightening and worth spending the time to thoroughly examine.
http://www.slideshare.net/JohnDroz/energy-presentationkey-presentation

Thanks, I enjoyed reading the presentation. I found it interesting that the author uses science and critical thinking so selectively.

For example, he misses a few points about the economics. I didn't see any slides discussing the external costs of fossil fuels or the HUGE subsidy that the US nuclear power industry recieves by having our government back-stop their insurance.

I would have like to seen him apply that same critical thinking to the "defense in depth" and "passive safety" concepts used in nuclear power plants. Obviously, the design basis for many nuclear power plants have been seriously challenged by the recent experience in Japan. He also doesn't discuss the implications for nuclear proliferation if breeder reactors are used to process old fuels.

And I agree that the author has a definate bias towards the power of the atom, there might be a bit of group think there...

John Droz:

http://www.desmogblog.com/john-droz

John Droz, Jr. is a Senior Fellow at American Tradition Institute and is an anti-wind-power activist.

In 2011 he became a member of the Board of Directors and scientific advisor to NC-20, an advocacy group that has been outspoken against restrictions on coastal development.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Tradition_Institute

The American Tradition Institute (ATI) is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit headquartered in Washington, DC and in Denver, CO. According to its mission statement, the ATI is "a public policy research and educational foundation ... founded in 2009 to help lead the national discussion about environmental issues, including air and water quality and regulation, responsible land use, natural resource management, energy development, property rights, and free-market principles of stewardship."

http://www.atinstitute.org/about/

So it seems clear to me what his perspective is and it is not exactly some hiker who decided to get educated about the issues and was surprised at what he found.

 

[marnof]

I have to agree about the negative cost/benefits of windpower, large-scale and small. Digging deeper into the numbers, large scale industrial windpower doesn't look very cost effective, especially without subsidies. Windpower for homeowners is expensive (again, subsidized) with a long period before reaching a break-even point financially. Then upkeep, etc.

From a hiking standpoint, I wouldn't mind seeing a windfarm in the distance, if I felt it was making a valuable contribution to society without harming the environment too much. I don't think the science is there to support that contention, though.

I see windpower as being potentially useful for small-scale, off-the-grid applications on larger parcels of land--cabins, remote sites without access to electric utilities that could harness wind, solar or water power for energy requirements.

 

[RoySwkr]

I see windpower as being potentially useful for small-scale, off-the-grid applications on larger parcels of land--cabins, remote sites without access to electric utilities that could harness wind, solar or water power for energy requirements.

My mother remembers the days of Delco systems on remote ranches where during the day the wind would charge a battery so you would have lights in the evening, no large-scale storage or transmission needed and in an emergency there are always candles! Of course the REA pretty much eliminated such places, another government subsidy favoring central power.

Perhaps the ideal wind application is a windmill pumping water to a stock tank, the tank is its own storage medium and the windmills being small and in the middle of nowhere don't offend anyone.

 

[Dave Bear]

Tom said "So it seems clear to me what his perspective is and it is not exactly some hiker who decided to get educated about the issues and was surprised at what he found."

Certainly not what I said or implied! And to your own point regarding wind energy, there is much disregard for the external costs by the proponents of wind energy. More specifically when it comes to having to maintain the entire redundant system due to the lack of on demand supply.

And Roy, perhaps if wind energy were effectively able to provide horse power when not needed to pump water to higher elevations or tanks it could then be released as hydro power when needed. This would likely only work on small scale and not at existing efficiencies. In the past I ran a 1.2 meg hydro plant and it takes alot of water and associated costs of a facility are huge!

 

[peakbagger]

This article about issues with the wind farm in Coos county may be of interest to some folks

http://www.nhpr.org/post/wind-farm-owner-and-coos-county-wrangle-over-payments

Unfortunately Brookfield and several other large corporations have taken to challenging property tax asessments in many rural NH communitites as a means of lowering their their tax bills by outspending the towns. In Gorham both Brookfield and the Portland Pipeline (both major taxpayers) are appealing every years tax bill depriving the towns of revenue as the money gets escrowed until the appeals process is complete whihc can take years.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Sam Evans-Brown is running a series on power in NH all week.

http://www.nhpr.org/post/decade-deregulation
http://www.nhpr.org/post/decarbonizing-grid-where-are-we

There may be more, these two I heard on the radio...

Tim

 

[DiamondRidge]

Just for the record, my parents live in Rumney and I'm up there with my children every weekend. We can see the turbines from our backyard as well as from many of the mountains that we love to hike up there... The girls and I have enjoyed watching them go up and have decided to see them as visual proof that the state is at least making an effort to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. We've not noticed any noise from them, and we're in their shadow... I understand that I am in the minority (but, then again, what else is new?) - but really, these windmills are something tangible that the kids can see that says that their future is important... As one of you said in an earlier post, "I don't think the windmills are any more an eyesore than some huge lakehouse"... And, one more thing... My dad is one of those local taxpayers who has seen the property tax increase because of the views that we have from the property...

 

[peakbagger]

The Maine Appalachian Trail Club has recently developed recomendations on wind farm siting in Maine. For those who are not aware, much of the western Maine AT has sections where wind development is quite obvious, with three major projects all in the viewshed and several more projects being planned. Many parts of the Grafton Loop Trail are even closer.

http://matc.org/Documents/Windpower Policy MATC Final.pdf

 

[sdways01]

We've not noticed any noise from them, and we're in their shadow...

I was snowmobiling up north this last weekend and one of the places we went was up Dixville Peak as far as they let you with sleds. While we were sitting there talking, I was amazed at how much noise the tower was making. Granted we were only a couple hundred feet from the tower, but it was still much louder than I expected it to be.

 

[DougPaul]

I was snowmobiling up north this last weekend and one of the places we went was up Dixville Peak as far as they let you with sleds. While we were sitting there talking, I was amazed at how much noise the tower was making. Granted we were only a couple hundred feet from the tower, but it was still much louder than I expected it to be.

The maximum blade tip speeds for some windmills is over 200mph which should make some noise...

Doug

 

[sdways01]

The maximum blade tip speeds for some windmills is over 200mph which should make some noise...

Doug

I'm not sure how fast they were turning while we were there. I know that they rotate the blades so they don't spin to slow/fast while operating. It didn't seem windy to me, but the others complained about the wind making them cold. The fact that the temperature was at best 5 degrees that day helped I am sure. I was still just surprised at the noise that was created.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

IIRC, the blades turn at a near constant speed. In order to meet that, they need wind speeds of a certain speed or greater, and since the blades are variable pitch, the pitch is constantly adjusting to maintain that speed. If wind speeds exceed a certain point, they shut themselves down.

As Doug points out, the tip speed is high. The motor and control unit is surprisingly large. I saw one on the ground awaiting assembly, and it looked to be about the size of a locomotive. I'm no expert on trains (nor windmills for that matter) but that was my impression as to the size of it. That amount of machinery is going to generate noise as well. The larger windmills produce enough electricity for about 350 homes, and generate about 50db of noise under the blades.

 

[nartreb]

There are enough of these around that it's easy to stand right under one.

Not a very good photo, but you get an idea of the size (look for the hiker at bottom left):
http://www.davidalbeck.com/photos/2012/potter/i015.jpg

The blades make a whirring air-turbulence noise, which is noticeable when you're nearby, but not bothersome. This one also gave a high-pitched shriek which I attribute to an ungreased bearing, and which was thoroughly unpleasant and very loud.

edit to add: Now that peakbagger mentions it, there was also an electric hum, which didn't penetrate very far (at least not in comparison to the metallic shrieking) and didn't bother me much.

The blades swing around like multi-ton guillotines, it's quite frightening to imagine being a bird flying through on a foggy day.

edited to add: I've been at Greenleaf hut on windy days when the turbine (just a few feet in diameter) got into some kind of resonance - made an unbearable racket that was bothersome as far as the summit of Lafayette.

 

[peakbagger]

The general complaint on wind turbines is usually a low frequency hum that is as much felt as heard. There are also resonant frequencies where the noise is worse. In some cases the turbines have to be "tuned" to avoid certain load conditions to reduce the noise. I believe the Vinalhaven Maine wind turbines have had to do this tuning although it appears there are still noise issues. Unfortunately many turbines are located in rural areas where the surrounding ambient noise level is low so that what may be regarded as "quiet" to someone from an industrialized area is a major distraction to someone used to the rural area.

The small wind turbines the AMC uses have similiar characterisitcs as air raid sirens from the fifties. They are also mounted directly to the building which is generally not recomended for wind turbines. I dont think they have a lot of options as a separate pole would probably need a USFS permit as a non conforming structure.

 

[DougPaul]

I have read some reports that state that most of the noise is projected outward so they may be louder some distance from the base than at the base.

Also, the airflow around the blade is disrupted as the blade passes the tower. This creates an infrasound (frequency below human hearing) noise that many find very disturbing.

Doug

 

[Hillwalker]

The actual alternator inside the housing is very large, and to generate 60 HZ AC it has to rotate at 3600 RPM. The air foils (blades) on the "turbine" themselves are connected to a transmission which steps up the rotation of the alternator to the required speed. The generators near where I live (Roxbury) do make a whine from the alternators. Actually, generator is the term used for those machine that are used to make Direct Current (DC) whereas alternators make Alternating Current (AC). The generators used at some of the huts rotate at very high speeds since they are creating DC and speed is directly related to current outout. They are sometimes awfully annoying when running fast. I have always thought the calling these wind powered alternators "turbines" is somewhat a misnomer since most "turbines" as in steam and gas turbines are very high RPM machines. Much higher than either the blades of windmills or the alternator inside the nacelle.

I live roughly 3 miles from the location of three proposed and approved (partially) wind farms. Saddleback, Timberwinds, and Canton Mountain.

http://www.saddlebackridgewind.com/
http://www.patriotrenewables.com/TimberWinds.html
http://www.cantonmountainwind.com/

One thing to consider is that these blades are driven by the wind and not the other way around. This affects the amplitude and frequency of the sound waves generated by the device. It's not the same as a fan running since it is passive and not active.

I have attended most of the meetings and presentations held in this area over thr past few years. The myths and totally wrong information promoted and believed by many is frightening. To wit; "Volkswagen sized chunks of ice thrown hundreds of feet", "blade flicker potentially causing epileptic fits", "mass migration of wildlife away from the tower sites" and so on.

I am not opposed to the three farms coming to my neighborhood, I just am of the opinion that they are about 10 years premature. The cost of US power generation will eventually rise to the point where these will likely be economically viable. But not today without pretty major subsidization.

 

[DougPaul]

The actual alternator inside the housing is very large, and to generate 60 HZ AC it has to rotate at 3600 RPM. The air foils (blades) on the "turbine" themselves are connected to a transmission which steps up the rotation of the alternator to the required speed. The generators near where I live (Roxbury) do make a whine from the alternators. Actually, generator is the term used for those machine that are used to make Direct Current (DC) whereas alternators make Alternating Current (AC). The generators used at some of the huts rotate at very high speeds since they are creating DC and speed is directly related to current outout. They are sometimes awfully annoying when running fast.

generator
n.
One that generates, especially a machine that converts mechanical energy into electrical energy.

An alternator is a specific class of generator which produces AC.

(Note that this is the "proper" definition. Workers in a specific field sometimes use terms differently than their proper definitions.)

No matter whether the generator produces DC or AC at any frequency, there are circuits which can convert it into 60 Hz AC of the proper phase to be fed into the power grid. An alternator has the advantage that it can be designed to produce 60 Hz AC directly, but this restricts it to run at a single RPM.

I have always thought the calling these wind powered alternators "turbines" is somewhat a misnomer since most "turbines" as in steam and gas turbines are very high RPM machines. Much higher than either the blades of windmills or the alternator inside the nacelle.

turbine:
n.
Any of various machines in which the kinetic energy of a moving fluid is converted to mechanical power by the impulse or reaction of the fluid with a series of buckets, paddles, or blades arrayed about the circumference of a wheel or cylinder.

Steam, gas, or wind are all turbines.

One thing to consider is that these blades are driven by the wind and not the other way around. This affects the amplitude and frequency of the sound waves generated by the device. It's not the same as a fan running since it is passive and not active.

Only weakly--basic aerodynamics says the both are very similar. The lift vector simply points in the opposite direction.

What counts is the relative motion of the air and the blades. For instance, airfoils (wing sections) are studied in wind tunnels where the airfoil is stationary and the air moves, but the same airfoil mounted on an airplane moves in stationary air. (Or on a windy day, both the airfoil and the air move.)

The fundamental difference is that, for a given wind speed, a fan's blades have a higher angle of attack (than "neutral") which increases the wind speed (because the net lift vector is in the direction of wind movement) and increases the energy of the wind whereas the windmill's blades have a lower angle of attack (than "neutral") which slows the wind speed and extracts energy from the wind (because the net lift vector is against the direction of wind movement). For a given wind speed, a propeller can be converted between a fan and a windmill simply by altering its RPM or the angle of attack of the blades.

Doug

 

[Tom_Murphy]

The cost of US power generation will eventually rise to the point where these will likely be economically viable. But not today without pretty major subsidization.

I feel the same way about nuclear power plants. Without the US government backstopping their insurance, I doubt that any of them would be in operation today.