Winter Camping Questions

[dug]

1) Besides having less mesh and having more poles, how is a winter tent different from a 3-season tent.
2) Assuming one wishes to continue breathing throughout the night, how does one keep his face warm through a brutally cold night in the sleeping bag?
3) Ladies, this would require some slick marksmanship skill on your part, but by all means feel free to read along if you wish. Does anyone take into the tent an empty bottle (perhaps an old 1 quart apple juice bottle) in order to avoid having to leave the tent at 2am in order to ...ummmm... well ... ummm ... I think you know what I'm getting at here (maybe I should've made this item #1 instead of #3). If solo, no problem. If with a partner, the partner must be very understanding.
4) What should be taken into the sleeping bag overnight when it's a hurtin kinda cold? camera/batteries, boot liners, wife/girlfriend/both, etc?
5) Any other winter camping lessons learned through experience?

1) Depends on the tent, but usually a couple more differences are stronger poles and thicker tent material to help with wind and snow loads.
2) Cover up except for the nose. Then, you have to deal with condensation all night.....
3) Yes
4) Boot liners (if I'm skiing) go between my bag and my pad, but I don't put them in the bag. Camera (if I've brought it).
5) Warm bottle between your legs.

 

[expat]

Coffee filters

If you're melting snow for water, you're going to wind up with pine/fir/spruce needles in the water. Removing just the needles doesn't remove the flavor, since the resins get into the water when the snow is melted.

Use a coffee filter when pouring the water into your nalgene bottle to remove almost all of the pine flavor. Poke the filter down into the bottle before pouring, and pour slowly. The filter will clog from the resins after about six fillings, so have a few filters for a weekend trip.

 

[--M.]

Spend 11 bucks on this book and you'll learn more than you could learn if this thread was 10 pages long.

This is a good thread. I'll probably buy the book, and I hope the thread goes ten pages, or as long as it gets out good stuff like this.

Next year's big buy will probably be a new bag (it stands in line after the Yosemite trip and the custom Limmers. Save those pennies!). Must stay warm.

 

[Neil]

5) Don't expect things to go fast.

Winter camping for the sake of winter camping is one thing. Winter camping as a means to winter peakbagging can be frustratingly slow. I like this post from Adkhighpeaks:

Winter camp and climb routine = all prep in eve including water then sleep in plastic boot liners.roll out of bag into boots adjust pack drink one nice warm nalgene and hike hard for one hour find nice place to set up stove,melt some snow eat some dried fruit and move on.stay moving all day and when it gets dark prepare for next day,sleep long and warm then get up and repeat.
MG

Camping at very cold temps (ie neg 20 and beyond) with no fire is very hard core. After years of neg 40 camping in central Canada we completely ditched the tents and quit making quinzees. We found that by constructing very simple lean-tos with a tent fly and sapling poles (something you can't do just anywhere of course) we slept most comfortably. The best bag $$ can buy is a must!

 

[percious]

Someone mentioned changing to dry clothes as soon as you get into camp. I actually recommend against this. A better alternative in my opinion is to leave your sweaty clothes on for a while, set up camp, keep moving to stay warm, and get a nice hot meal brewing. Once your body has warm food in it, your body heat will dry out your clothes rather quickly. This is partly due to the fact that you mustn't get the clothes very warm in the cold dry air for the moisture to evaporate. If you take your shell layer and turn it inside out and put it back on, the inside moisture may freeze, and then can be shaken off. remaining moisture may evaporate. Your base layer should be made of a material that drys very quickly, and it will probably dry through a fleece if you have one on. Avoid the temptation to put that down jacket on right quick because the moisture from your body will go into the down, diminishing it's warming powers. I kind of do a wear-the-fleece for a while, evaporate for until I cannot stand the cold, then fleece... rinse wash repeat.

And peeing in the night, I go outside. Not comfortable with the fact that I might miss/spill, rendering my down sleeping bag(s) useless. I'm pretty clumsy at night. Plus it's 8oz less bottle to bring. It's amazing how warm you get after you expel all that liquid. The energy you spend keeping that pee warm in your body goes right back to keeping the rest of you warm.

You will eat more, bring more than you think you need. Melting snow is costly from a fuel standpoint. If you are using only snow-melt you may use as much as 11oz pp pd.

***Down Booties are a must-have.***

If you are like me and wear leather boots as apposed to double/plastic jobbers, you are going to want to keep your boots under your head at night. Just a small increase in temperature will keep those laces moving in the morning. Also, if you put a couple of nice hot water bottles in your boots for a while in the morning before you put them on it is a nice treat.

In my experience, camelbacks don't work very well in the winter.

-percious

 

[DougPaul]

2) I have been tenting at -40° over a long weekend in Canada. I did not use anything over my face as it just started to ice up, resulting in the ice keeping me awake. When we awoke in the morning (me and my older brother), there was a layer of snow all over everything inside the tent from the moisture. My mouth area was the only skin that was exposed, and it suffered no damage. Be prepared with extra sleeping bags or blankets as the ratings are sketchy at those temps. I used 2 nested bags with a 3rd liner over everything and used a Thermarest on the base. Vents aren't necessary as the moisture will freeze long before the vents can transport it.

Your only hope for minimizing the frost in the tent is ventilation.

You exhale and perspire a significant amount during the night (I forget the number--it is something like .5-1 liter of water). If you ventilate, some (hopefully most) blows away, the rest freezes on surfaces in/on your tent.

A VBL can help to reduce your perspiration and thus the amount of frost. Even more important, it can help you to keep your bag dry and you hydrated.

Take your choice: be a bit warmer but wetter or cooler and drier.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

....- Propane does not flow at temps that cold, so be prepared for it (in case you are thinking of bringing a heater). ......

Huh???? How cold are you talking about? Or are you thinking butane? Aren't al the huts in the Whites (as well as many homes) equipped with propane for cooking (heat)

Butane is a lost cause at those temps: boiling point 31F (-.5C). (Isobutane 11F (-12C).) Propane has a boiling point of -44F (-42C), so propane would be marginal. (Remember that the tank is cooled as the liquid evaporates so in practice heat has to flow into the tank to keep it above boiling.) Gasoline doesn't really freeze, but gets thicker somewhere below -70F (-57C).

The big propane tanks probably retain some heat to help them through the cold nights. Fortunately, there aren't that many -40F nights in the Whites.

FWIW, I would never take any heating apatarus. Wasted weight. Little insulation to keep in that heat. I'd rather waste the weight on something like a tortilla press of something like that.

I'd "waste" the weight on a better sleeping bag...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Spend 11 bucks on this book and you'll learn more than you could learn if this thread was 10 pages long.

I have a copy of "Winter Hiking and Camping" (ADK), by Danielsen which was helpful in my early days. Now out of print. "Winter Camping" (AMC) by Gorman is probably a good modern replacement. http://amcstore.outdoors.org/AB1805000/showdetl.cfm/DID/8/Product_ID/288/CATID/19

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

If you're melting snow for water, you're going to wind up with pine/fir/spruce needles in the water. Removing just the needles doesn't remove the flavor, since the resins get into the water when the snow is melted.

Use a coffee filter when pouring the water into your nalgene bottle to remove almost all of the pine flavor. Poke the filter down into the bottle before pouring, and pour slowly. The filter will clog from the resins after about six fillings, so have a few filters for a weekend trip.

I use a stanless steel bathtub drain filter. They are shaped like upside-down top hats, so they fit (and stay) right in the opening of a widemouth Nalgene. Fine enough mesh to filter out the scratchies. I've never had mine clog. A hardware store item. They come in several sizes, so bring a Nalgen with you to the store.

Doug

 

[KayakDan]

I can't put everything into the numeric sequence-these are just odds and ends.
Don't close that tent up at night-let the breeze blow through and keep the condensation to a minimum. I hate waking up to a snowstorm INSIDE the tent!
If the snow is deep enough,dig a pit about 2 feet deep at the end of the tent,inside the vestibule if possible. It makes a handy place to change boots,or with PLENTY of ventilation,you can use a cannister stove. It's also a great place to stash backpacks for the night.

I wrap duct tape around the Nalgene designated for "pee bottle" duty. That way,even in the dark,there's no mistaking it! I use mine while I'm in the sleeping bag(very carefully!) Mrs KD uses it too! What a talented woman!

If you use a cannister stove,toss a can into the foot of your sleeping bag for use first thing in the morning. I stash a cannister inside my jacket about a half hour before we stop to set up when hiking,so we can start food right away.

Get some thin polypro glove liners(I like the MH ones). This will give you the dexterity to mess with the tent,and still keep your hands covered.

Toss a thin fleece blanket on the floor of your tent,before putting sleeping bags etc in. It's a warmer surface if your sitting in the tent with just socks on your feet.

I'm also one to leave damp clothes on and wear fleece while they dry out.

Fleece sock-down booties-absolutely!

We always start with hot soup as soon as the tent is up. Keeps you hydrated,warms you up while the main event is cooking.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread! Rock on!

 

[Neil]

Get some thin polypro glove liners(I like the MH ones). This will give you the dexterity to mess with the tent,and still keep your hands covered.

Also very good to have if you ever have to manipulate the nylon of a sleeping bag when turning in at negative mucho mucho. The cold nylon sucks the heat out at a painfully intense rate.

The best thing about a temperature of negative 40 is you don't have to worry whether it's in farenheit or celsius.

 

[DougPaul]

I wrap duct tape around the Nalgene designated for "pee bottle" duty. That way,even in the dark,there's no mistaking it!

I use cylindrical bottles for drinking and a square bottle for a pee-bottle. Even harder to confuse. But usually, I just go outside.

Get some thin polypro glove liners(I like the MH ones). This will give you the dexterity to mess with the tent,and still keep your hands covered.

I use windblock fleece gloves--warm enough for most uses (at reasonable temps) and dexterious enough that I don't have to take them off very often. One exception: synthetics melt, so I use wool gloves when cooking.

Toss a thin fleece blanket on the floor of your tent,before putting sleeping bags etc in. It's a warmer surface if your sitting in the tent with just socks on your feet.

I just put the sleeping pads in and sit on them. Works too.

I'm also one to leave damp clothes on and wear fleece while they dry out.

Same here, but you are likely to get chilled when it gets really cold, say -40 (to keep Neil happy... ) or lower.

Doug

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I use cylindrical bottles for drinking and a square bottle for a pee-bottle. Even harder to confuse.

I use that system, and my girlfriend uses cylindrical bottles for pee-bottles, and square ones for drinking.... An indication that we're not made for each other?

Anyway, it isn't much of a problem. You only make a mistake once.... And hey... Some people drink pee on purpose. Google "drinking urine for health"

 

[DougPaul]

I use that system, and my girlfriend uses cylindrical bottles for pee-bottles, and square ones for drinking.... An indication that we're not made for each other?

Sounds like a pre-divorce in the making. Or at least don't camp together...

Anyway, it isn't much of a problem. You only make a mistake once.... And hey... Some people drink pee on purpose. Google "drinking urine for health"

Perhaps not the most asthetic, but there are certainly worse things one can drink. Besides, fresh urine is sterile...

An argument for not using fuel bottles for drinkable liquids--people have been known to confuse them in the dark.

Doug

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

...Besides, fresh urine is sterile...Doug

WRONNGGG!!!

Actually, fresh urine is usually sterile...there are exceptions, such as if you have a bladder or kidney infection.

 

[DougPaul]

WRONNGGG!!!

Actually, fresh urine is usually sterile...there are exceptions, such as if you have a bladder or kidney infection.

Yes, I am aware of the exceptions and had considered mentioning them.

And actually, it is only sterile while in the bladder--it generally picks up some bacteria from the urethera on the way out. The problem with non-fresh is that it is a good growth medium.

Some of my backcountry medical instruction has suggested that fresh urine can be used to clean wounds if nothing else is available.

Doctors used to taste urine to diagnose diabetes--it tasted sweet due to excess sugar.

Still not planning on making a habit of drinking it...

Doug

 

[Neil]

Yes indeed, and while we are at it let us not forget to include the risks and hazards of a non-sterile pee bottle.

Personally, the idea of peeing in a bottle grossses me out. It's easy to regulate one's fluid intake so as to avoid nocturnal micturition. To avoid excessive thirst just have a water bottle in your bag.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Yes, I am aware of the exceptions and had considered mentioning them.

And actually, it is only sterile while in the bladder--it generally picks up some bacteria from the urethera on the way out. The problem with non-fresh is that it is a good growth medium.

Some of my backcountry medical instruction has suggested that fresh urine can be used to clean wounds if nothing else is available.

Doctors used to taste urine to diagnose diabetes--it tasted sweet due to excess sugar.

Still not planning on making a habit of drinking it...

Doug

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to correct you. It doesn't happen very often, so I had to jump on it quick.

 

[AOC-1]

. It's easy to regulate one's fluid intake so as to avoid nocturnal micturition.

Surprising opinion from a "senior member."

 

[DougPaul]

Yes indeed, and while we are at it let us not forget to include the risks and hazards of a non-sterile pee bottle.

After you have been fermenting the mix in your sleeping bag near body temp all night, I'll bet you have a pretty good brew by morning. Just remember to empty it before it freezes...

Personally, the idea of peeing in a bottle grossses me out. It's easy to regulate one's fluid intake so as to avoid nocturnal micturition. To avoid excessive thirst just have a water bottle in your bag.

There once was a leader of our outing club who insisted that people had to drink enough that they had to get up at night. He would have people force water down their throats after dinner to make sure they had enough...

A bit over the top, IMO.

I usually drink enough with dinner (without force-drinking) that I have to visit the woods at least once. No big deal. It is generally better to drink a bit too much and have to unload the excess than not drink enough.

I normally get up and visit the woods rather than use a bottle. But if the weather outside is bad, then the bottle may be preferable to putting on and removing all the extra clothing. You can also pee into a bottle and then dump it outside immediately. No biggie whichever way as long as you dont confuse the drinking-water snow mine with the dumping ground... or .

Women can use a wider mouth bottle or bowl (with lid) if they prefer. You may want to practice your technique in the shower before using it in the field.

Doug