Winter Camping

[dug]

Since this is a broad topic and it doesn't appear to be discussed a lot here yet, what about sleeping bags? What's really needed? 0? -10? -20? Duck vs Goose? Treated vs Non-treated? Brand recommendations? Assume we're camping in the woods <3k feet. I'm amazed at the selection and prices - seems good to shop around.

"Depends". I have a -40 down which I'll use if it's forecasted to be really cold. I can think of twice where I probably needed a bag that cold. Usually, it's too much and I lay it on top of me like a comforter.

Otherwise, I have a 0-degree bag that is sufficient. If it's chilly, I'll just throw on a layer. Can't recall if it was mentioned anywhere, but a warm Nalgene bottle in your bag when you go to bed is nice to snuggle onto.

All down, I don't own any synthetic bags. Less moisture around in the winter

 

[DayTrip]

I'd caution the need for a "bomber" tent. Doesn't sound like you are going to be camping high on the shoulder of Washington, so I wouldn't concern myself too much with wind factor. You do need to care for snow loads, but many step-walled tents are fine here. Especially for solo.

You can get a good tent for 5 lbs. Now, I'd often go with a friend who is a Moss fanatic. Beautifully constructed, bombproof tents. Heavy, but we'd each take a piece so it split up OK.

I know. I was just responding to the previous comment and the weight of tents in that category. You don't have to try hard to push 10 lbs. I always get a 2 person tent even for myself even though I hike or camp alone. I like the added space for gear and somewhat of a more comfortable feel. I know I take on additional weight doing so but it is worth it to me.

It seems like the only way to save any significant weight is to go single wall vs double wall. After researching quite a bit now I think I'm better off with a double wall tent for what I'll be doing (not dead of Winter conditions, likelihood of seeing cold rain and wet snow, humidity,etc). I think based on all the previous comments and thinking about it more I've ruled out the hammock option for now.

 

[DougPaul]

It seems like the only way to save any significant weight is to go single wall vs double wall. After researching quite a bit now I think I'm better off with a double wall tent for what I'll be doing (not dead of Winter conditions, likelihood of seeing cold rain and wet snow, humidity,etc). I think based on all the previous comments and thinking about it more I've ruled out the hammock option for now.

I have slept out on snow with freezing rain, fortunately in a double wall tent. There was 1/8--1/4 inches of ice coating the fly the next morning. Such conditions can trap you in your tent if the zippers freeze... (If it happens, try to melt a zipper free with heat from your hands. If that fails, you may have to cut your way out.)

There were earlier questions about sleeping bag temp ratings--I have spent a -30F night out in the Whites and a day where the high was -14F (don't know what the night-time temp was), both at lower altitudes. These temps don't happen that often, but when they do I suggest that you either be prepared or stay home.

Re hammocks in winter: I have done a backyard test at 20F with a 0F bag and double pads under me. If you want to go colder you will need a special cylindrical bag that goes around both you and and the hammock so you don't crush it with your weight. A friend did a -5F backyard test using such a bag. Sleeping in a tent will crush your bag on 1 side and your pad sits on the relatively warm ground while a hammock will crush your sleeping bag on 3 sides (if inside the hammock) and has cold air flowing under you. Hammocks also give less wind protection than tents and snow can blow under them.

<soap box>
It is a lot easier to get into serious trouble in winter than in the other three seasons. I suggest that anyone who is interested attend a winter school or get competent instruction to learn how to do it safely. There are lots of ways to screw up and/or take unnecessary risks and it is a lot better to learn about them from someone else than to experience them oneself...
</soap box>

Doug

 

[jfb]

Since this is a broad topic and it doesn't appear to be discussed a lot here yet, what about sleeping bags? What's really needed? 0? -10? -20? Duck vs Goose? Treated vs Non-treated? Brand recommendations? Assume we're camping in the woods <3k feet. I'm amazed at the selection and prices - seems good to shop around.

Sleeping bags rated to -20F are pretty popular. Goose down bags weigh less and are more compressible than synthetic bags, and the differences are pretty significant at the -20F rating. I think all the good brands use some sort of weather resistant shell fabric. There are several good brands, the more expensive ones are probably the best (no surprise there). Down comes in different fill powers (cubic inches per ounce). The highest fill powers are around 900, but anything over 600 is still pretty good (just a bit heavier and less compressible). I like a bag that's large enough so I can change clothes inside.

 

[DougPaul]

Sleeping bags rated to -20F are pretty popular. Goose down bags weigh less and are more compressible than synthetic bags, and the differences are pretty significant at the -20F rating. I think all the good brands use some sort of weather resistant shell fabric. There are several good brands, the more expensive ones are probably the best (no surprise there). Down comes in different fill powers (cubic inches per ounce). The highest fill powers are around 900, but anything over 600 is still pretty good (just a bit heavier and less compressible). I like a bag that's large enough so I can change clothes inside.

Note, however, that as you sleep, you deposit moisture in a bag which will decrease the loft of down. This is not a serious problem over a weekend (1 night), but there can be a significant loss over several days or longer. (One should obsessively air down to dry it out on longer trips.)

I don't have any specific information to support it, but I suspect that higher loft down is likely to lose loft faster than a lower loft down as moisture accumulates.

An anecdote: on a trip one hiker started out with an 8 inch loft down bag and the other started with a 6 inch loft polyester* bag. After a week, both bags had about the same loft.

* Polyester is heavier and doesn't stuff as well, but is affected far less by moisture than is down.

(I'm not advocating for either one--just giving the trade-offs. I have used both.)

Doug

 

[jfb]

More info about down vs. synthetics: http://www.gryphongear.com/technology

 

[sierra]

When I did sleep out in the backcountry in the winter, I used a synthetic bag with a -30 rating. The coldest temps I pushed it too, were -35 in the Great Gulf, I kid you not, I could feel the cold coming through the stitching holes, it was un-nerving. Had I know it was going to get that cold, I would have stayed home.

 

[dave.m]

Note, however, that as you sleep, you deposit moisture in a bag which will decrease the loft of down. This is not a serious problem over a weekend (1 night), but there can be a significant loss over several days or longer. (One should obsessively air down to dry it out on longer trips.)

I don't have any specific information to support it, but I suspect that higher loft down is likely to lose loft faster than a lower loft down as moisture accumulates.

An anecdote: on a trip one hiker started out with an 8 inch loft down bag and the other started with a 6 inch loft polyester* bag. After a week, both bags had about the same loft.

* Polyester is heavier and doesn't stuff as well, but is affected far less by moisture than is down.

(I'm not advocating for either one--just giving the trade-offs. I have used both.)

Doug

Doug, have you read Steger's book on crossing the Antarctic? Their synethic bags got so full of frost that they couldn't be stuffed and they got very heavy.

IMO, the strongest point in favor of vapor barriers is to protect insulation.

 

[jfb]

This link seems to conclude that both down and synthetic insulation will degrade as moisture accumulates, even when using a vapor barrier liner: https://arapahoeprepfair.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/frost-in-arctic-sleeping-bags-edited.pdf

 

[hikerbrian]

When I did sleep out in the backcountry in the winter, I used a synthetic bag with a -30 rating. The coldest temps I pushed it too, were -35 in the Great Gulf, I kid you not, I could feel the cold coming through the stitching holes, it was un-nerving. Had I know it was going to get that cold, I would have stayed home.

-35 is WAY cold. Crikey. -25 is my 'best' so far. It was the second night of a 3-night trip, and for whatever reason my body had adapted and I wasn't cold. I had an old Slumberjack -40 synthetic bag.

I still use a -40 synthetic, TNF Dark Star. I have a mixed relationship with it. It is ENOURMOUS, stuffed, compressed or otherwise. Really a PITA to get into my pack, even with as much compression as I can muscle, sitting on the bag, pulling on the compression straps. On the upside, that process does warm me up in the morning. And it is pretty special to crawl into at night. I got it so that I could go to Baxter and/or Denali (the latter hasn't happened yet) - it's really ideal for that since it's not much heavier than a down bag, and the compression doesn't matter much when you've got a sled. BUT, I go to Baxter about once every 5 yrs, may never get to Denali, yet I camp out in the Whites multiple times/year. CLEARLY I need a second winter sleeping bag... (wife, are you reading this?)

 

[DougPaul]

Doug, have you read Steger's book on crossing the Antarctic? Their synethic bags got so full of frost that they couldn't be stuffed and they got very heavy.

No, but I have read reports on his crossing and am certainly aware of 30+ lb ice-filled sleeping bags on multi-month Antarctic trips.

If you haven't read it, you might find The Worst Journey in the World https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...field-keywords=The+Worst+Journey+in+the+World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worst_Journey_in_the_World amusing... (I read it in the dim-dark past.)

From http://warmlite.com/vapor-barrier/

Will Steger used “breathable” Quallofil sleeping bags for his much advertized dog sled trip to the north pole: those 17 lb. bags (almost as thick as our 4 1/2 lb Goose Down bags) were carried loose on top of sleds “for best drying”, yet weighed over 52 lbs. in a few weeks from sweat condensing to ice. Luckily they were flown out from the pole. Meanwhile a Canadian – Soviet team cross country skied across the pole, using WARMLITE bags they had purchased, which stayed dry and warm for the whole trip. Will Steger bought FUZZY STUFF Vapor Barrier liners from us for his Quallofil (read, $500,000 support from Dupont!) bags for the much longer south pole trip and thus kept the bags dry and warm the whole trip.

Synthetic fibers do not prevent moisture (and ice) accumulation, but they do maintain their insulation value longer than down as the moisture accumulates.

IMO, the strongest point in favor of vapor barriers is to protect insulation.

I agree (without having actually done it myself), moisture barriers are vital to survival is such situations. Socks, gloves, clothing, and bags/bag liners...

Doug

 

[Chip]

Since this is a broad topic and it doesn't appear to be discussed a lot here yet, what about sleeping bags?
What's really needed? 0? -10? -20? Duck vs Goose? Treated vs Non-treated? Brand recommendations? Assume we're camping in the woods <3k feet.
I'm amazed at the selection and prices - seems good to shop around.

A bag's rating can't be trusted.
If you can open the bag up and observe it before you buy it: If it looks like it's filled with helium - that's a good winter bag.
If it can't support the weight of it's nylon, there's too little dead air in there to insulate you well.

I've mostly winter back-packed. Heat, humidity, mud, bugs and crowds skeeve me.
There's too much good info in this thread to properly quote and give attribution to the poster, so I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm not doing that.

Winter days are short. Plan on setting up camp at like 2:30. You don't want to be cold, hungry and not set up at 4:30.
Winter nights are long. Bring a Kindle or something. Get up and pee when you need to, it's not going to go away. Or use a large, dedicated bottle in the tent to pee in.
A particular product (tent, bag, stove, etc) won't make or break you. It's a system. Keep and protect (zip lock) a dry set of long underwear, socks, hat and gloves. Perfectly Dry = Warmer in winter.
Use 2 pads. There's no loft in any bag beneath you. I like a decent bag, dry clothes, 2 pads, a small pillow and a bivy sack inside a decent tent.
Eat fatty snacks in the tent. Bring food you can eat even if you can't melt water or light your stove. Know where you're going. It's freaking irritating guessing late in the day.

I generally avoid winter hiking and back-packing solo as it bores me and is a little more dangerous if anything goes wrong.

 

[alexmtn]

AMC Winter Hiking/Camping Courses

Following up on my earlier post, with specific scheduling/registration info for the AMC Boston Winter Hiking Program, which starts on Wednesday, November 2.

BOSTON CHAPTER WINTER HIKING PROGRAM:
http://activities.outdoors.org/search/index.cfm/action/details/id/92865&act=1

The NH programs are in January and February, and will likely be posted over the coming month.

Both programs are open to all.

Alex

For those not aware, each year the AMC chapters run some highly acclaimed instructional programs, open to everyone, related to winter hiking and camping. Rich instructional content, takeaway materials and hands-on gear demos, as well as lots of hours in the company of experienced leaders whose brains are there for the picking. Volunteer-run, so the cost is nominal.

The two I’m most familiar with are the Boston Chapter’s Winter Hiking Program, taking place in Boston on 5 weeknights in November and early December, and the NH Chapter’s full-weekend Winter School sessions, which take place twice – once in late January, and again in late February at Cardigan Lodge in Alexandria, NH. You can opt for one or both of these weekends.

The weeknight format of the Boston program works well for folks who are in the extended Boston metro area. The NH chapter’s format works best for those who find it more convenient to pack all the content into a single weekend-long session.

Both chapters also offer a series of instructional winter hikes and backpacks that you can choose from to apply and cement the skills covered in the programs.

The programs aren’t posted yet, but will be over the coming month. If you’re interested, I encourage you to watch for them. When they do hit the web, pounce – they tend to fill up quickly. To check for them, go to outdoors.org on your computer or phone, click the “FIND EVENTS” tile, and then under “Activities:”, choose “Instruction (Skills)” and click the green SEARCH button. You can then quickly scroll through the offerings in chronological order.

If questions, feel free to PM me.

Alex

 

[egilbe]

This would be my powerball winning Winter Bag:

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/sleeping-bags/gore-windstopper-expedition-series/bison-gws/

But, I would settle for

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/sleeping-bags/microfiber-series/puma-mf/
and use a synthetic overquilt from Enlightened Equipment.

Eh well...One can always dream.