Winter Camping

[sierra]

I rarely backpack in anymore, been there done that, I don't miss all the work and the weight. That being said, I'll toss out some of my thoughts. I would have always have dry clothes for camp and I would keep them bagged in my pack to make sure they stayed dry. The clothes you hike in will most likely be some degree of wet and when you stop to camp, they will rob you of heat. I would throw on my dry clothes and try to dry what was wet by various means if I could while I camped. I always used white gas, my go to stove for years was an Optimus 8r with a pump. Unfortunately,I got altitude sickness on White Mtn. Peak in the Sierra's at 13k and had to abort and descend and left my stove behind. I then went canister. I like canister's, but you have to either keep them warm or warm them before cooking. I have a Sierra designs double wall tent, it's bombproof and worth the weight to me. It has a good vestibule for cooking in bad weather. NEVER burn a stove in your tent of use anything that will give off CO2, it can kill you even with venting. My sleeping bag was synthetic and went to 30 below. Overfill for some but my mindset was, that bag was my last line of defense in a bad situation or even a dreadfully cold night. I was never cold, one night I slept in minus 30 conditions and was warm. When sleeping, I wore midweight underware and if it was cold a hat, if your heads out of the bag you need a hat on, on real cold nights, I was all the way in with the ripcord pulled tight, leaving a hole the size of a fist only. I always slept with a full Nalgene to start my day with water. personally, I slept with my food, many will say hang it or bear can it, I wouldn't argue the point. As far as food, I went with dehydrated meals mostly. East to prepare, less dishes and even though they say for two, they are for one, you will burn mega calories humping that winter load. I also brought food that didn't need to be cooked, if your stove malfunctions and all you have is cooking food, your hungry. Beef jerky, cheese, sticks of pepperoni or salami, nuts or gorp, think high calorie intake. Hope at least some of this helps.

 

[dug]

I received a Bibler (now Black Diamond) Eldorado single-wall tent 10-15 years ago as gift. I plan to be buried in it. Love, love, love the tent. They have a few variations now in their tents, but looks like they still make the Eldorado and I-Tent (slightly smaller version). Huge fan. Lightweight, about 5 lbs. Can be set up very quickly, I did it once in under 3 minutes from digging out of pack to rolling out bags. Packs up smaller than the rainfly in my other tents.

Some other things to consider...cooking. It's cold, so use it to your benefit. Bring things that you possibly couldn't in the summer, let nature be your refrigerator. I pre-make meals and seal them in vacuum bags, and then just drop them into a pot of boiling water to reheat. Also, since it's cold and dark, you can just sit in your bag early, which gets old real fast, or spend time outside as long as possible. So, spend some time building your kitchen. If I'm stamping down an area for my tent and setting that up, by partner is on kitchen detail. We favor a U-shaped setup, where you dig down 4 feet or so (if there's lots of snow). One half of the U is your bench, the other is the countertop. You can stand to cook, sit down to get out of the wind, and have plenty of storage custom made just by kicking or punching holes. I'm also a fan of ridgerests, which can be cut to a few different sizes to sit/stand on.

 

[hikerbrian]

I've been thinking that I'd like to start extending my camping season into the "off season" and try Winter camping.

Cool. Since so many people rely on FB now instead of this website, I won't attempt to hold back the secret that hiking in the winter is amazing (as you know), and waking up after having slept on snow is life-changing. Congrats to you for looking to expand your horizons. This will make you a better hiker and camper in all seasons, and possibly a better person. I'm not even kidding. With that:
1. Good idea. Another option is to hike in and camp just more than 1/4 mile from one of the huts that's open year-round. That's a pretty good safety net too. Maybe that's round II for you.
2. Both can work fine. Look at the weight, design, and durability. Most name-brand tents will be reasonably durable. I have a >15 year old EMS single wall tent that still works fine, though this might be its last year. It's 5 lbs and has been a lot of places. If you can find something less than 7 lbs, you could use it for backpacking. Note that solo backpacking in the winter is really hard. Carrying a full tent, stove, cooking gear, etc without a partner to spread the weight around is just plain hard. Slightly easier if you have Really Nice Stuff, or if you're Very Strong, but still hard. If your tent is 10 lbs, you're going to be less likely to want to use it (for backpacking). If you really are going to only use it for car camping, then get something bomber that's easy to set up, even if it weighs 10 lbs.
3. Jetboils CAN work (this is known as a canister stove, since the fuel comes in a non-refillable pressurized canister). You need to keep the canister warm WHILE YOU'RE USING IT. This usually means filling a small bowl with warm water and operating your stove while the canister sits in the water. Replace the water with new warm water periodically. To avoid the bowl of warm water, many people prefer white gas stoves. These stoves use liquid fuel that comes in a 1 gallon metal jug at REI or Walmart, rather than the pressurized canisters. MSR Whisperlite is the the most popular liquid fuel stove, though there are a few scattered Svea fans hiding in the cracks. ;-) These stoves require actual skill to operate. Having first learned how to use one more than 20 years ago, I can't believe anyone could screw it up. And yet friends of mine who are extremely smart tell me they can't get their Whisperlite going without a fireball. I guess I'm just talented.* (*Note: not true) The arguments over which style of stove is superior in the winter are legendary. For water, if you can find a source of liquid water and boil it, you will use about half as much fuel as you would need if you use snow, melt it, and then boil it. Don't bother with a filter, steripen, etc in winter. If you bring water with you for car camping, use a very large (several gallon) insulated jug and start with warm/hot water. It'll probably stay liquid overnight.
4. Warmth. Remember: your clothes, sleeping bag, hat, etc do NOT produce warmth. They only trap the warmth that you've already created. The only thing that creates warmth is your body. To create warmth, you need to have sufficient fuel in you (food and water), and your body needs to be metabolizing that fuel at a high enough rate. So if you are cold, you can try adding a layer (this works great when you have more layers to put on), or you can add more fuel (eat something high energy, like chocolate, and drink water), or you can start moving to increase your metabolism - 5 minutes of moderate hiking uphill will pretty much ALWAYS warm you up, as long as you have fuel in you and enough energy for the exertion. When you go to sleep, keep something high energy next to your bag (i.e. chocolate). If you wake up cool/cold, eat the chocolate.

 

[DayTrip]

I received a Bibler (now Black Diamond) Eldorado single-wall tent 10-15 years ago as gift. I plan to be buried in it. Love, love, love the tent. They have a few variations now in their tents, but looks like they still make the Eldorado and I-Tent (slightly smaller version). Huge fan. Lightweight, about 5 lbs. Can be set up very quickly, I did it once in under 3 minutes from digging out of pack to rolling out bags. Packs up smaller than the rainfly in my other tents.

Some other things to consider...cooking. It's cold, so use it to your benefit. Bring things that you possibly couldn't in the summer, let nature be your refrigerator. I pre-make meals and seal them in vacuum bags, and then just drop them into a pot of boiling water to reheat. Also, since it's cold and dark, you can just sit in your bag early, which gets old real fast, or spend time outside as long as possible. So, spend some time building your kitchen. If I'm stamping down an area for my tent and setting that up, by partner is on kitchen detail. We favor a U-shaped setup, where you dig down 4 feet or so (if there's lots of snow). One half of the U is your bench, the other is the countertop. You can stand to cook, sit down to get out of the wind, and have plenty of storage custom made just by kicking or punching holes. I'm also a fan of ridgerests, which can be cut to a few different sizes to sit/stand on.

I bought a vacuum sealer this Spring and have been doing all my camping meals this year like that. I get water boiling, drop the bag in and turn stove off and let it sit for about 10 minutes. Then I'll boil the water again, drop in pasta or rice and turn it off again. By the time the pasta is ready I open the vacuum bag, stir in the pasta and I have a huge delicious meal with zero clean up. My wife is a very good cook so I've had all kinds of cool meals this year. I'd certainly be doing something similar for Winter.

 

[DayTrip]

2. Both can work fine. Look at the weight, design, and durability. Most name-brand tents will be reasonably durable. I have a >15 year old EMS single wall tent that still works fine, though this might be its last year. It's 5 lbs and has been a lot of places. If you can find something less than 7 lbs, you could use it for backpacking. Note that solo backpacking in the winter is really hard. Carrying a full tent, stove, cooking gear, etc without a partner to spread the weight around is just plain hard. Slightly easier if you have Really Nice Stuff, or if you're Very Strong, but still hard. If your tent is 10 lbs, you're going to be less likely to want to use it (for backpacking). If you really are going to only use it for car camping, then get something bomber that's easy to set up, even if it weighs 10 lbs.

You and several others have referenced a single wall tent, using it for years and liking it. From what I've read it sounded like condensation would be a problem if temps weren't well below zero. Is the big benefit the weight savings? I just imagine a scenario where it's 30 degrees, a heavy wet snow/rain is falling and the moisture just comes right through the tent wall. Does it not work that way? What am I missing?

 

[DayTrip]

3. Jetboils CAN work (this is known as a canister stove, since the fuel comes in a non-refillable pressurized canister). You need to keep the canister warm WHILE YOU'RE USING IT. This usually means filling a small bowl with warm water and operating your stove while the canister sits in the water. Replace the water with new warm water periodically. To avoid the bowl of warm water, many people prefer white gas stoves. These stoves use liquid fuel that comes in a 1 gallon metal jug at REI or Walmart, rather than the pressurized canisters. MSR Whisperlite is the the most popular liquid fuel stove, though there are a few scattered Svea fans hiding in the cracks. ;-) These stoves require actual skill to operate. Having first learned how to use one more than 20 years ago, I can't believe anyone could screw it up. And yet friends of mine who are extremely smart tell me they can't get their Whisperlite going without a fireball. I guess I'm just talented.* (*Note: not true) The arguments over which style of stove is superior in the winter are legendary. For water, if you can find a source of liquid water and boil it, you will use about half as much fuel as you would need if you use snow, melt it, and then boil it. Don't bother with a filter, steripen, etc in winter. If you bring water with you for car camping, use a very large (several gallon) insulated jug and start with warm/hot water. It'll probably stay liquid overnight.

So I'll go ahead and ask the dumb question: If I'm using my stove to heat water and I need warm water so I can use the stove to heat water.......where am I getting that bowl of water to start with? Do I save some water for drinking to use? How warm is warm? At the end of a day of hiking even hot water in an insulated coozy isn't too warm. If I carry a fuel canister in a pocket to keep warm does it still require using a bowl of water. Can you expand on this thought?

 

[dug]

You and several others have referenced a single wall tent, using it for years and liking it. From what I've read it sounded like condensation would be a problem if temps weren't well below zero. Is the big benefit the weight savings? I just imagine a scenario where it's 30 degrees, a heavy wet snow/rain is falling and the moisture just comes right through the tent wall. Does it not work that way? What am I missing?

There are top vents and if you crack the door open, it's never been a problem except for one time. We hiked into cold, and it turned very warm and rained over night. Not really what that tent is built for. Condensation hasn't been anymore of a problem than we the other winter tents we were in.

To me, the weight and space savings are worth it. Especially when you are solo.

Edited to add another benefit is that you set the poles up from the inside. So, if the weather is bad, and this has happened, you can dive in the tent and out of the elements while you set it up.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

You and several others have referenced a single wall tent, using it for years and liking it. From what I've read it sounded like condensation would be a problem if temps weren't well below zero. Is the big benefit the weight savings? I just imagine a scenario where it's 30 degrees, a heavy wet snow/rain is falling and the moisture just comes right through the tent wall. Does it not work that way? What am I missing?

If you can afford a "winter tent", then a single wall is the way to go. I am still trying to get the $ per night cost of my winter sleeping bag down to a responsible number.

Pulk - don't let it cause you to bring extra gear, I use two backpacks one on me with about 1/3 of the weight and a second in the pulk with the remaining 2/3. When the trail gets steeper I switch them because I find it easier to have the extra weight on my hips rather than pulling me back/down

 

[Tom_Murphy]

http://www.pmags.com/gear-review-black-diamond-firstlight-tent

 

[hikerbrian]

In my experience, the condensation in a single wall tent is not much different than in a double wall. If the conditions are ripe for condensation, you'll get it no matter what. But as long as there is a little breeze, I leave the windows and doors cracked whenever possible, and that seems to take care of it. Some people like to seal up their tent to keep in the warmth. I prefer to ventilate and avoid condensation. I've had the tent out in inversion conditions - cold in the valley, then hiking up through above-freezing temps, and then sleeping overnight as it rained. It was NOT ideal, and the tent didn't perform very well. But those conditions are rare. Honestly, heavy wet snow/rain mix is just difficult conditions period. But if it's going to rain, I take a different tent. And it's definitely not usable in summer - doesn't breathe well enough and it gets very muggy. The single wall tent is stricly a winter tent, I think. But yes, the weight and packed-size savings are considerable and trump everything else. Actually, my next tent may be a Megamid. I used a friend's on some glaciated peaks out west, and it was pretty nice. Very light, roomy, comfortable. I think I'd like the ability to really shut out the elements say in the Presidentials, but for a Pemi loop or something, a 'Mid might be a pretty good way to go.

For your Jetboil question, as long as the water is liquid, it's warm enough to keep your Jetboil working pretty well. That said, as the fuel from your canister is consumed, the canister cools and a layer of ice quickly forms around the canister, decreasing its performance. It's better to have tepid to slighly warm water. Think nice summer temps - 60-90 degrees F is best, keeps everything working ideally. You don't want to go much hotter than that, but a little cooler, right down to freezing temps is fine. So I pour warm water into the bowl and that lasts quite a while before I have to change it. Your 'end of the day' scenario is the reason some people are not so fond of canister stoves. Let's say you drank all your water on an epic day, and now it's too cold to get your stove started because you forgot to put the canister in your jacket and now the fuel won't vaporize. Bad Stuff Ensues. But in reality, it's pretty easy to either leave a little bit of liquid water available, or put the canister in your jacket for the last half hour, which will provide enough warmth to the canister to get your stove started, quickly warm up a little bit of water, and get the cycle going. Also, if you're so spent on an epic day that you don't have the presence of mind to put your canister in your jacket, you might also find it difficult to muster the focus to start your Whisperlite, which as I said does require some actual skill. So that is the main objection to that stove. I've used my Whisperlite in a lot of very difficult conditions and never had a problem. On the other hand, on a friend's advice, I took my MSR Reactor cartridge stove on a 4-day Pemi-loop this past winter, and that performed amazingly well too (using the techniques I described above). But it was really warm, I don't think it ever got below the teens. I've heard canister stoves get to be a hassle once the temp drops below about zero degrees because you're constantly having to change out the water to keep the canister warm, but I haven't done the experiment myself. For winter backpacking, you spend a LOT of time heating water. An hour, often, depending on the day. So keeping the canister in your jacket will usually be enough to get the stove started and get some water warmed up to start your cycle, but it probably won't stay warm long enough to heat all of the water you'll need. So that's when the bowl becomes necessary.

 

[dug]

In my experience, the condensation in a single wall tent is not much different than in a double wall. If the conditions are ripe for condensation, you'll get it no matter what. But as long as there is a little breeze, I leave the windows and doors cracked whenever possible, and that seems to take care of it. Some people like to seal up their tent to keep in the warmth. I prefer to ventilate and avoid condensation. I've had the tent out in inversion conditions - cold in the valley, then hiking up through above-freezing temps, and then sleeping overnight as it rained. It was NOT ideal, and the tent didn't perform very well. But those conditions are rare. Honestly, heavy wet snow/rain mix is just difficult conditions period. But if it's going to rain, I take a different tent. And it's definitely not usable in summer - doesn't breathe well enough and it gets very muggy. The single wall tent is stricly a winter tent, I think. But yes, the weight and packed-size savings are considerable and trump everything else.
.

Great points here Brian. I'd prefer it's 10 degrees colder if it stays drier in there. I drive some crazy but I leave the doors open as much as I can.

I've used it a few times in cold, dry October/November weather. It performed well, but it's mostly used December through March.

 

[DayTrip]

In my experience, the condensation in a single wall tent is not much different than in a double wall. If the conditions are ripe for condensation, you'll get it no matter what. But as long as there is a little breeze, I leave the windows and doors cracked whenever possible, and that seems to take care of it. Some people like to seal up their tent to keep in the warmth. I prefer to ventilate and avoid condensation. I've had the tent out in inversion conditions - cold in the valley, then hiking up through above-freezing temps, and then sleeping overnight as it rained. It was NOT ideal, and the tent didn't perform very well. But those conditions are rare. Honestly, heavy wet snow/rain mix is just difficult conditions period. But if it's going to rain, I take a different tent. And it's definitely not usable in summer - doesn't breathe well enough and it gets very muggy. The single wall tent is stricly a winter tent, I think. But yes, the weight and packed-size savings are considerable and trump everything else. Actually, my next tent may be a Megamid. I used a friend's on some glaciated peaks out west, and it was pretty nice. Very light, roomy, comfortable. I think I'd like the ability to really shut out the elements say in the Presidentials, but for a Pemi loop or something, a 'Mid might be a pretty good way to go.

For your Jetboil question, as long as the water is liquid, it's warm enough to keep your Jetboil working pretty well. That said, as the fuel from your canister is consumed, the canister cools and a layer of ice quickly forms around the canister, decreasing its performance. It's better to have tepid to slighly warm water. Think nice summer temps - 60-90 degrees F is best, keeps everything working ideally. You don't want to go much hotter than that, but a little cooler, right down to freezing temps is fine. So I pour warm water into the bowl and that lasts quite a while before I have to change it. Your 'end of the day' scenario is the reason some people are not so fond of canister stoves. Let's say you drank all your water on an epic day, and now it's too cold to get your stove started because you forgot to put the canister in your jacket and now the fuel won't vaporize. Bad Stuff Ensues. But in reality, it's pretty easy to either leave a little bit of liquid water available, or put the canister in your jacket for the last half hour, which will provide enough warmth to the canister to get your stove started, quickly warm up a little bit of water, and get the cycle going. Also, if you're so spent on an epic day that you don't have the presence of mind to put your canister in your jacket, you might also find it difficult to muster the focus to start your Whisperlite, which as I said does require some actual skill. So that is the main objection to that stove. I've used my Whisperlite in a lot of very difficult conditions and never had a problem. On the other hand, on a friend's advice, I took my MSR Reactor cartridge stove on a 4-day Pemi-loop this past winter, and that performed amazingly well too (using the techniques I described above). But it was really warm, I don't think it ever got below the teens. I've heard canister stoves get to be a hassle once the temp drops below about zero degrees because you're constantly having to change out the water to keep the canister warm, but I haven't done the experiment myself. For winter backpacking, you spend a LOT of time heating water. An hour, often, depending on the day. So keeping the canister in your jacket will usually be enough to get the stove started and get some water warmed up to start your cycle, but it probably won't stay warm long enough to heat all of the water you'll need. So that's when the bowl becomes necessary.

OK. Thanks for the detail.

 

[jfb]

That doesn't look bad. I own two Marmot tents (a 2P 3 season with a significant amount of mesh and a 6P for when the wife/friends comes along) and really like their stuff so I've been looking at some of their Winter models. I haven't seen their Winter tents in many reviews though. Most other reviews I've seen criticize their heavier weights not so much the quality. I've set aside about $500 for the tent and while I could go higher I really don't want to given how little use I'll likely get (probably 2-4 times a year).

I found some info about Ferrino. The company has been around for a while and it looks like they make high quality tents: http://www.ferrino.it/en/company/history/

 

[ChrisB]

What else would be top priority issues to have a handle on? I "don't know what I don't know" so if anyone can shed light on their first time Winter camping don'ts I'm sure that would be of great benefit.

You don't mention your boot choice: single vs. double. Day tripping I usually use singles. If it's too cold for them I stay home!

But overnight is a different game. Singles will freeze solid overnight unless you put them in your sleeping bag, which takes up a lot of room in the foot section. Doubles are warm, don't freeze, but are HEAVY to schlep miles in.

Like all things winter, it's a trade off: Comfort (& safety) vs. weight

cb

 

[Brambor]

I've had Ferino daypack for almost 10 years - excellent pack.

I found some info about Ferrino. The company has been around for a while and it looks like they make high quality tents: http://www.ferrino.it/en/company/history/

 

[Brambor]

singles freeze but it doesn't take too long for them to warm up once you put them back on in the morning. In my book it wouldn't stop me from going.

 

[TEO]

You don't mention your boot choice: single vs. double. Day tripping I usually use singles. If it's too cold for them I stay home!

But overnight is a different game. Singles will freeze solid overnight unless you put them in your sleeping bag, which takes up a lot of room in the foot section. Doubles are warm, don't freeze, but are HEAVY to schlep miles in.

Like all things winter, it's a trade off: Comfort (& safety) vs. weight

cb

Vapor barriers are a solution, since most (all?) of the moisture in your boots is the result of perspiration. I took up SectionHiker's suggestion of using Reynolds Oven Bags, and they worked quite well. Unlike SH, I don't mind the sensation of the skin/plastic interface, so I dispensed with liner socks.

 

[Brambor]

I'd like to add that some minimalistic setups work just fine too. For example
a) stomping out a trench, laying in a tarp, then foam matt(s) then sleeping bag and a second tarp to cover yourself works well.
b) same as above except for just laying next to a tree trunk where there is very little snow and generally a good protection from new snow.
c) winter hammocking - gets you off the ground... works great for me.
d) one tarp pitched above you, one tarp below you (or thin plastic sheet), one foam and one air mattress.

boots under your head with the backpack over them make for a good pillow

 

[Brambor]

good point. I always at least carry the bags in my pack in case it gets really bad out there. I wear vapor barrier socks while hammock camping in the winter and it works great.

Vapor barriers are a solution, since most (all?) of the moisture in your boots is the result of perspiration. I took up SectionHiker's suggestion of using Reynolds Oven Bags, and they worked quite well. Unlike SH, I don't mind the sensation of the skin/plastic interface, so I dispensed with liner socks.

 

[alexmtn]

For those not aware, each year the AMC chapters run some highly acclaimed instructional programs, open to everyone, related to winter hiking and camping. Rich instructional content, takeaway materials and hands-on gear demos, as well as lots of hours in the company of experienced leaders whose brains are there for the picking. Volunteer-run, so the cost is nominal.

The two I’m most familiar with are the Boston Chapter’s Winter Hiking Program, taking place in Boston on 5 weeknights in November and early December, and the NH Chapter’s full-weekend Winter School sessions, which take place twice – once in late January, and again in late February at Cardigan Lodge in Alexandria, NH. You can opt for one or both of these weekends.

The weeknight format of the Boston program works well for folks who are in the extended Boston metro area. The NH chapter’s format works best for those who find it more convenient to pack all the content into a single weekend-long session.

Both chapters also offer a series of instructional winter hikes and backpacks that you can choose from to apply and cement the skills covered in the programs.

The programs aren’t posted yet, but will be over the coming month. If you’re interested, I encourage you to watch for them. When they do hit the web, pounce – they tend to fill up quickly. To check for them, go to outdoors.org on your computer or phone, click the “FIND EVENTS” tile, and then under “Activities:”, choose “Instruction (Skills)” and click the green SEARCH button. You can then quickly scroll through the offerings in chronological order.

If questions, feel free to PM me.

Alex