XCountry Skiis

[DougPaul]

Don't wanna carry extra boots; don't wanna hike in big ol' plastic (kind of a Limmer guy). I've got the booties, but I don't wanna freeze in the morning.

FWIW, I've done overnights using my Snowfield boots. (Including a -30F night.) I've also done short "hikes" in them (ie walks around difficult spots), but haven't tried any difficult or long hikes in them. A friend with traditionally cold feet has done snowshoe hikes in hers.

It isn't hard to keep one's feet warm while skiing, but some find it difficult while standing around. But you have your booties as backup in case your feet start to get seriously cold.

Overboots for ski boots used to be available, perhaps they still are.

Doug

 

[David Metsky]

Again, take a look at Garmont Excursions and Scarpa T4s. They are plastic, but much smaller and lighter then you would think. They're designed for touring rather then turning, and are warm and comfortable.

 

[--M.]

Great stuff, guys, thanks very much, we'll see how it plays out.

Dave, would you say the plastics are significantly more comfortable than typical plastic mountaineering boots (Koflach, etc.)? That's really where my concern is. Nice to wake up to serious warmth, but not so great under each step. The Garmonts or Scarpas are easier to hike in (than the big plastics)?

 

[dug]

Great stuff, guys, thanks very much, we'll see how it plays out.

Dave, would you say the plastics are significantly more comfortable than typical plastic mountaineering boots (Koflach, etc.)? That's really where my concern is. Nice to wake up to serious warmth, but not so great under each step. The Garmonts or Scarpas are easier to hike in (than the big plastics)?

I'm not a huge plastics fan, so my opinion will be jaded. I wear leather boots if on snowshoes or crampons. I have not worn the boots Dave has mentioned, but I do wear the Scarpa T3s. Again, please not they may be overkill for your specific example, but I needed one pair of boots to:
-x-country ski
-learn to tele
-ski down hiking trails with a somewhat controlled turn
-ski with a full pack

That being said, they are more comfortable and flexible than what I recall about plastic winter boots. However, they are "bigger" so therefore a little less user friendly.

A typical trip for us would be to ski in and set up camp. Grab a day pack and do a summit, tour, etc. and come back to camp. Shed the boots, where the booties for the night. Next morning, warm up the liners (these are double-boots remember) and either ski out or do the next days' day trip. Repeat cycle at night if necessary.

I'll let Dave chime in on his specific boot examples.

 

[David Metsky]

Yes, they are much more comfortable then plastic mountaineering boots. They flex much more, and as such are inappropriate for any serious climbing.

Try some on in the stores, it's the only way you're going to know if they're right for you. You're looking for a compromise boot; jack of all trades, master of none. You may decide to go in a different direction, but this is one solution.

 

[DaveSunRa]

One note: If going with one do all plastic tele boot, not all crampons with be compatible.

 

[dug]

One note: If going with one do all plastic tele boot, not all crampons with be compatible.

True. I had to extend my crampons to a size 13 and they barely fit. 13 1/2 wouldn't have made it. I weare a size 11 tele boot.

 

[--M.]

Gonna Keep AT It...

Hey,

Thanks for helping out on these gear questions.

Neither REI nor EMS has the Scarpa, Garmont or Karhu boots I'd want to look at (T4, Excursion, XCD respectively). The Mountaineer in Keene Valley has some (and that's where the "big weekend" is anyway), but it seems to cut things too close to buy gear as I get there.

Also, I'd like one more recommendation for a leather-type alternative to the Excursion or T4 (which are also quite expensive!). Didn't Limmer get started on precisely this kind of boot? Do they no longer make BC ski boots? I'd want a warm 75mm that can switch to a crampon or snowshoe.

If I'm going to pay real money (looks like as much as $800?!), I'd want a fully-qualified and stocked store, not make do with a downhill shop that thinks it can translate its expertise to BC or tele. And it would be a full package, too; bindings, skis, poles, everything. I haven't bought skis this way since my downhill days.

I'm in eastern Massachusetts; where does one go? Do you have a full-service shop that has the gear you like? [I don't know where you are...,] But I'd drive a while to find [actually] knowledgeable salespeople who come recommended and have multiple lines of gear. Otherwise, I might as well troll the web for price and take my chances with sizing & returns.

Thanks again for all this valuable info! It's worth shopping retail for!

 

[cushetunk]

--M.,

You're stumping people on this board who I think have some pretty solid experience trying to address the question you have. My guess is that if you're doing that, you're going to stump most salespeople, too. Even the best stores don't have a wide variety of light touring boots. And if they do, most salespeople in the ski department are probably not skiing in to a campsite to go "slowshoeing," so they won't have personal experience with your dilemma. They'll probably suggest the Excursion. Or try to sell you a Scarpa T2X because that works great for what they do.

I would echo Dave's advice and suggest you not trust anyone but yourself on this.

That said, you might search for some older used Merrill boots -- I think the Ultra, Fuzion, or Flash might fit your needs. They're leather, and have one or two buckles (I forget which has which, though). Sometimes they are on eBay. They should cost substantially less than $800. (I paid $50 for mine a few years ago; old but unused.)

I also like your idea of custom Limmers made with a 3-pin sole. Do you have a few years?

 

[DougPaul]

Neither REI nor EMS has the Scarpa, Garmont or Karhu boots I'd want to look at (T4, Excursion, XCD respectively).

IIRC, REI Reading has had some of these boots in the past few years, but selections seem to diminish with time. You might do better at their websites. If you go mail order, also check out http://www.akers-ski.com/, http://www.bentgate.com/, http://www.backcountry.com/, http://www.thebackcountry.net/cart/home.php, http://www.skirack.com, etc. (If you are looking for a specific model, a Google search on the model name can be very fruitful.)

Also, I'd like one more recommendation for a leather-type alternative to the Excursion or T4 (which are also quite expensive!). Didn't Limmer get started on precisely this kind of boot? Do they no longer make BC ski boots? I'd want a warm 75mm that can switch to a crampon or snowshoe.

Limmer used to make ski boots until plastic came on the scene. http://www.skimuseum.org/page.php?cid=doc28. Their current website doesn't list any. http://www.limmerboot.com/

I'm in eastern Massachusetts; where does one go? Do you have a full-service shop that has the gear you like? [I don't know where you are...,] But I'd drive a while to find [actually] knowledgeable salespeople who come recommended and have multiple lines of gear. Otherwise, I might as well troll the web for price and take my chances with sizing & returns.

EMS (North Conway may be best), REI, Joe Jones Wilderness House (Boston) may be your best bets. (BTW, Wilderness House used to have a good selection and they claim to have retained the selection http://www.joejonessports.com/store.php?storeid=20.) IME is also worth checking out.

Also, you may find some of the beefier 3-pin XC/backcounty boots listed under Telemark boots.

Doug

 

[skiguy]

I'm in eastern Massachusetts; where does one go?

Ragged Mountain Equipment

 

[--M.]

Thanks for all the commentary; most helpful.

I searched far & wide on the web to find a place in Massachusetts (or anywhere) that had the Karhu boot, or even the Garmont Excursion. The Karhu only showed up in limited remainder-bin sizes; it seems to be gone. I could repeat the story as I heard it, but it may be hearsay, so I'll leave it alone. At any rate, the closest thing I could find on the light end was the Alpina BC 1575, which doesn't look beefy enough.

I finally called The Mountaineer (in Keene Valley, New York) and discussed options versus likely uses. I ended up telling them to prepare me a package of Garmont Excursions, Karhu 10th Mountain skis and the Voile Mountaineer 3-pin bindings (very simple). I'll try 'em on when I get out there (not this weekend, but next), and if I like 'em, they'll immediately be run out to Santanoni.

I would have preferred to start out with a leather boot (put my Limmers on a pair of skis), but there doesn't seem to be anything beefy enough to transition to crampons or keep warm overnight. The plastics have liners and are (or, as FZ would say, are purported to be) comfortable to wear.

It's a lot of dough, but, if done right, this set-up could be the only arrow I need for quite a while. My skinny touring skis are becoming a bit rocked-out from the hard use I give them (like skating across pine roots in the streams below Livermore Pass, oops) and I'm hoping these new ones will be a little better targeted at what I'm gonna use 'em for.

Looking forward to checking them out; I'll let you know.

Thanks again for the beta. Getting to know which stores really have it together makes a HUGE difference when you want full retail. I'd forgotten about Ragged Mountain. And thanks to IndianChris for letting me (outright) hijack his thread. I hope it's beneficial info for others.

 

[DougPaul]

I ended up telling them to prepare me a package of Garmont Excursions, Karhu 10th Mountain skis and the Voile Mountaineer 3-pin bindings (very simple).

Looks reasonable.

I would have preferred to start out with a leather boot (put my Limmers on a pair of skis), but there doesn't seem to be anything beefy enough to transition to crampons or keep warm overnight. The plastics have liners and are (or, as FZ would say, are purported to be) comfortable to wear.

It is the end of the winter merchandise season, selections are sparse. Once you get a basic setup, you can add pieces as you want and they become available.

It's a lot of dough, but, if done right, this set-up could be the only arrow I need for quite a while. My skinny touring skis are becoming a bit rocked-out from the hard use I give them (like skating across pine roots in the streams below Livermore Pass, oops) and I'm hoping these new ones will be a little better targeted at what I'm gonna use 'em for.

Any ski used in the NE BC soon acquires its share of scratches...

Doug

 

[skiguy]

It is the end of the winter merchandise season, selections are sparse. Once you get a basic setup, you can add pieces as you want and they become available.

Doug

Also for you Karhu Fans...their ski and boot division has been bought by K2 and the 7TM binding system has been bought by Garmont. So if you like what they've got now who knows what might be up for next season.

 

[--M.]

Also for you Karhu Fans...their ski and boot division has been bought by K2 and the 7TM binding system has been bought by Garmont. So if you like what they've got now who knows what might be up for next season.

Well, this is corroboration of the story as told by the ski guy at The Mountaineer, and was the explanation for why the boots are out of print.

It would seem to me that there's a reasonably ripe market out there for a mid-weight back-country boot.

Meanwhile, I'm still enjoying the manic thrill of making significant durable-goods purchases in support of our nation's need for consumer spending!

 

[DougPaul]

It would seem to me that there's a reasonably ripe market out there for a mid-weight back-country boot.

The manufacturers don't seem to think so... Tele gear is mostly oriented toward heavy duty gear aimed toward lift served skiing. And BC gear seems to favor proprietary binding systems which many of us feel are too light for BC use.

Also, try to find a waxable BC ski in a store...

Doug

 

[--M.]

I ended up telling them to prepare me a package of Garmont Excursions, Karhu 10th Mountain skis and the Voile Mountaineer 3-pin bindings (very simple). I'll try 'em on when I get out there (not this weekend, but next), and if I like 'em, they'll immediately be run out to Santanoni.

And this is what I did. Everything fit nicely.

Inasmuch as we ended up backpacking, I didn't get to use them on steeper hiking trails, but I did tour them out to Camp Santanoni on Sunday. That road is relatively flat, kind of the opposite of what they were supposed to be for, but I did get a good idea of the differences.

The plastic boot is very light -- for a plastic boot -- but is definitely a lot more work for kick-&-glide than a lightweight boot. And the ski's shorter tail and curved waist make it want to turn out of track without continuous correction.

Any transition, however, to even the slightest incline, and they blossom. Very natural, completely comfortable. The combination of edges with the beefy three-pin binding makes a huge difference. It seems they'll do exactly what I'll want for heavier terrain, but validates the skinny skis for their applications, too. In this case, I just could not keep up with the guys on touring skis.

I'll take them out to Wachusett and maybe back up to the Livermore Road and have a better idea of their downhill characteristics.

Thanks again; it was a huge help.

--Mike

 

[Stan]

Also, try to find a waxable BC ski in a store...

I guess I'm a sufficiently mediocre xc skier that I always wonder, why would anyone want to mess with wax?

I fantasize about a boot that works with both my 3-pin xc skibinding and with snowshoes ... it would make trips possible that, well, I could wax nostalgic about.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Waxless skis excel in a narrow range of conditions and are mediocre in most. Waxable skis excel in all conditions as long as the wax is properly matched.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

I guess I'm a sufficiently mediocre xc skier that I always wonder, why would anyone want to mess with wax?

More fun in good conditions...

BTW, even waxless skis should be [glide] waxed. Swix F4, Maxiglide, etc are appropriate and available in forms which are very easy to apply.

I fantasize about a boot that works with both my 3-pin xc skibinding and with snowshoes ... it would make trips possible that, well, I could wax nostalgic about.

This weekend I drove my car, skied, and snowshoed wearing the same pair of 3-pin boots. The boots are Asolo Snowfields (similar to an over-the-ankle hiking boot). http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-boots.html#snowfield

Doug