Summit Registers

Well, I think you guys have cured me!! I don't think I'll look at another list again.

E. Schlimmer said:

Right now there are several different versions of just about every peakbagging list you can think of. What it most often comes down to is what rules are in place to make a peak a peak. For example, whoever thinks they have the "official" Adirondack 100 highest came up with it this way:

1. The official 100 highest list is the one in the back of the ADK guidebook.
2. No, the list consists of the top 100 peaks that rise at least 200 feet on all sides.
3. Sorry, the list consists of the top 100 peaks that may rise 200 feet on all sides. We count all marginal peaks.
4. No, I have the list. The list consists of the top 100 peaks that may rise at least 200 feet on all sides, and we will count Mt. Emmons, Mt. Donaldson, Nye Mtn., Grey Peak and Armstrong Mtn., though there's no way they can possibly rise 200 feet.
5. You are all wrong. The official list consists of the top 100 peaks that clearly rise 200 feet (we will not count marginal peaks) plus the five peaks on list No. 4 above.

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Great points, but even if you think you have the right list, there still may be issues with it. This whole subject came up a few months back on another forum. One of the lists I'm working on is the ADK100 and for sheer "map laziness" on my part, I've chosen #1 (the one listed in the ADK book) as my official list.

During map recon and general studies, it soon became apparent that parts of the list seemed off and appeared to omit peaks that "appeared" to meet the qualifications listed in the book. I decided to ask Tony Goodwin (the author of the list) and he gave a very detailed response. (for those interested in that discussion, read the thread -HERE-).

What is boils down to is even the very maps we use to generate lists are likely faulty as well, at least in the ADK's. Who the heck knows what to use. For me, and several friends I like to hike with, our "official" list for the ADK 100 will, in actuality, consist of 102 (possibly 103) peaks. The original list (found in the book) plus Wilmington and Bullhead. I personally may also add Unnamed, Hornet Notch, because my personal thoughts have it at .75 miles from Blue Ridge (E of Hoffman) thus qualifying to be included on the list. I may be the only one to think that way, but hey, isn't that part of the beauty of the whole exercise .

E. Schlimmer said:

It's probably not 100 percent accurate since people finish and new accomplishments are revealed but it's pretty close.

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I would say this is at most 75% accurate

About 26 people have climbed the ~451 3,000-footers of New England. Listed below are the 22 names that I know of from various sources, including summit registers.

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Obviously you're not trying very hard, since you leave out 2 of the #2 finishers listed in my previous note. In fact you seem to be missing 5 of the first 10, including a guy from Sanford ME and a couple from Hartland VT. Then there are two state highpointers from Chelmsford & Arlington MA whom I believe have finished the NH 3k in winter and are working on the NE 3k, not sure whether they already did them in summer. And the guy from Kingston NH who made the first NE 3K list from 7.5' maps unlike Gene's list which was partly based on 15'. And I thought there were more of Anne Gwynne's cronies which would put the total well over 30.

Does anyone have names of those who've finished the ADK Hundred Highest besides those mentioned so far, and a good estimate of how many have done so?

Two more names for the NE 3k list, Dan and Eleanor Comstock from VT. I think the only navigational aid they used was the Delorme for the state they were hiking in.

Another name for the NE 3k list is John McHugh of Plaistow, NH. I did close to 20 peaks with John, he finished on Belvidere on 10-14-89. I guess that brings the total to over 30.

Is the FTFC official?

dr_wu002 said:

I was not questioning the FTFC necessarily, more asking the people who follow the lists what makes the FTFC (or any other committee) have the right to say this list is 'official' and that isn't.

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The FTFC does acknowledge that we operate with one particular set of rules and that others are welcome to define their own "game" differently if they so choose. We only ask that those who apply for membership in our club, follow our rules and hike our lists. Our lists are only "official" relative to receiving recognition (patches, scrolls, etc.) from us.

If another group formed to recognize a different set of 4000-footers, they would have just as much claim to the word "official" since it would be relative to recognition by them. This has, in fact, already happened with the Trailwrights, although they are primarily a trail work organization for whom the list is only a partial focus. Check them out at http://www.trailwrights.org/.

My sense is that the FTFC is considered official not because we insist on it (we don't) but that it is a matter of public perception aided by the fact that
- we are the only group so far to use the phrase "four thousand footer" in our name
- we have the longest history (almost 50 years) and the most members (over 8000)
- our primary focus is on recognizing the lists (though we strongly encourage trail work and contribute to trail maintenance projects)
- we are affiliated with one of the best known outdoor organizations in the area which publishes the most comprehensive guide to the White Mountains and includes information about us in an appendix
- it seems unlikely that anyone would form another club with a very similar list just because of a few feet of elevation or potential errors in the USGS maps (The Trailwrights list is radically different - for one thing, not all of them have trails.)
In other words, we are the club everyone thinks of when they think of 4000-footers in New England. And I hope that we will continue to be good stewards of that reputation.

Peakbagr said:

Does anyone have names of those who've finished the ADK Hundred Highest besides those mentioned so far, and a good estimate of how many have done so?

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I've met and/or hiked with several others, including Mike Bush. I've heard estimates that 50-100 have done the list. I know of at least a dozen who right now are in the mid 90's on the list. I'd bet more than 100? I've also heard estimates of 1000 to as many as 5000 unregistered 46ers, so no one will ever know the real numbers. Kind of nice. I know the 100ers I hike with rarely, as in almost never, talk about the 100.

finishers on some obscure lists

A few years ago, Gene Daniell sent me a note with his list of NHHH and NE3000 footer finishers. By my count there were 27 finishers for the 3000 footers and 75 for the NHHH.

I'd emphasize I have no claim for completeness since the list was limited to those who filled out some sort of form and sent their names in. Of course, it also missed the names of more recent finishers as well.

At this time, I maintain a highly unofficial roster of finshers for both the above lists (and have patches for both) and would be happy to hear from finishers or interested parties.

To that list you can add:
Kathy Gill
Barbara Harris
Inge Aiken

And about to add #99ers, Brian Yordon and Spencer Morrissey who are about to finish.

The old "peanut butter jars" contain the names of other who may have completed them such as: Sonny Martineau, Art Robinson, Gene Daniell, Friedel Scrhunk, Bob Brainard, "Mr Natural", Nat Wells, Ray Fotte, Bruce O'Neil, Scott Stanford, Chris Noble, Paul Sirtoli, Bill Cranker, Stephen Nicols, Will Coonradt and Bill Kozel. Some of the names date back from 1980 thru the early '90s.

My guess is that Eric is close on his estimates. Probably 25-35 finishers, perhaps a few more. With the increased interest in these peaks, and many who are actively climbing them, the number of finishers is certainly going to rise significantly in the next 3-4 years.
I hadn't noticed the debate getting fierce, though. Most of the folks I know who have completed them or actively working these are following Tony Goodwin's list in the back of the ADK HP guide. Folks like Alain, Tom, Schlimmer, Swanson, Eilers, Crispo and some others are doing their own variations. The latter group are from another planet in terms of a level of commitment, endurance and fortitude that most others won't approach.

E. Schlimmer said:

This list is getting pretty popular and there is a fierce debate about getting the list more "established." Most of the more experienced hikers, including those that have finished this list, are against more establishment while the "younger" peakbaggers often feel the opposite. Funny how hiking lists of mountains can be so debatable. For instance, more than 1,500 people have looked at this thread, which contains more than 50 responses. Where is John Swason is all of this?

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Wonderful thoughts.......... as one of the Johnny-come-lately's, I would fall into the latter category which you state. Of course, I am not a completer, so perhaps I have no standing in the matter and my voice is deservedly small. We (you and I) have had a small amount of discourse in this in the past and I left my thoughts undone (and I just realized, I owe you a communique ).

I think it may be an oversimplification that us "younger" crowd wants to see an "establishment" of this list, at least in my case. Perhaps 10 years ago, the traffic seen on these peaks allowed for some measure of "don't ask, don't tell". I've been pecking at them in the last couple, and even more so listening to traffic about these peaks increase exponentially in the last couple years. Lots more traffic about them is on this forum and another forum I am a big part of.

Like it or not.......... and for whatever reason, these peaks are seeing more traffic. Things like cut views, trespassing, herd paths, route-cutting all concern ME A GREAT DEAL. The closer I get to finishing and more summits I reach (and I'm not close) the more worried I get. Recently as I sat in the rain on Little Santanoni, my first though was not "I'm one peak closer to 100", It was instead of -THIS THREAD-. Perhaps it was the desolation and calming embrace of the tree'd summit, but it gave me a truer appreciation of the Adirondacks that ANY of the higher open summits EVER DID. The thought that untold hundreds are looking towards this mountain and others like, perhaps with LESS appreciation and respect than I have............. makes me SCARED for the FUTURE of these summits. (envision in Dances with Wolves when Kevin Cosner finnally tells the chief just how MANY white men are coming)

In my opinion, if we continue to ignore the fact these peak are MORE ACCESSIBLE (any ole idiot with a GPS can get to em, and I am proof of that 70 times over), and are becoming MORE attractive to future adventures, then we do so at our OWN peril. Unsightly herd Paths, wanton trespassing (which I DISDAIN), cutting trees to improve the views, blazing trees and routes will all collide one day to decimate these very special places. I used to tremble in awe at the thought of "facing the mighty Sawtooth Range", now I'm told to expect cut views, signs and the other trappings of humans. I almost could care less about going now, and that my friend, is very sad

Does any of this convey that I think there should be a further "establishment" of this list, not at all. I have no vested interest, I wouldn't be on any "established lists" anyway. No-one will mistake me for a pioneer hiker .

Do I think that those that have a true appreciation for these places need to take a more active stand in the protecting the "spirit" they represent to all of us. Yup, I most assuredly do. Also, I believe there is only one way to gain this appreciation as well.

Once again, I mean no disrespect to you pioneers, and I truly marvel at your woodcraft and back-country skills. I really think the schools of thought mentioned by Eric are really not all that far apart, only in methodology. If this steps on any of your toes, my apologies. I really do understand my place as a neophyte among giants. My passion sometimes gets the best of me and words are not always my strong suit. I hope I have at least partially shed some light on my thinking. I think others share my thoughts too.

E. Schlimmer said:

Yes, excellent points made by Mavs00. Personally, I agree with all of them and have just as much concern about these peaks becoming trashed. I especially like the Dances With Wolves analogy.

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It's good to know we agree on many points. It seems to me from this discussion, and others I've seen, that there are a few good people that advocate that the spirit and integrity of these remote places be maintained, sot they do not become the next societal "sacrifice areas" of tomorow.

I'll ask a rhetorical, but thought provoking question........ What will like minded souls do that we agree and understand that the traffic on these summits is increasing (and the accompanying problems this traffic brings will manifest even moreso in the furure)?

I'm probably overthinking it and I certainly don't have the answers, but It seems that the current path of apathy on all our parts could bring us right to where (many of us) don't want to be - Following some crappy, poorly designed, badly eroded herd path to the artificially created view on Lewey Mountain's summit.

Just like the multitudes chasing the fallacy of the 21 "trailless" 46er summits do right now.

E. Schlimmer said:

...Where is John Swason is all of this?

Counting all the different variations of the Adirondack 100 highest list, these are the completers I know of for sure:

1. John Swason
2. Dennis Crispo
3. Sue Eilers
4. Erik Schlimmer
5. Alain Chevrette
6. "DB Cooper"
7. Tom Haskins
8. Jim Close
9. William Coonradt
10. Bill Cranker
11. Bill Kozel
12. "Mr. Natural"
13. Barb Harris
14. Inge Aiken
15. Kathy Gill


When I finished the 100 highest in the mid-1990's there were clearly less than 20 people who have hiked the list and I didn't hear of the "possible's" above. But that was nearly a decade ago.

I believe that there cannot possibly be forty or more completers today. But after all, it is not about who did it but what they experienced.

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....hugh? I guess I was sleeping thru this one. Not sure why my name is listed first... as with any list, I find it interesting to view the date of completion or order of completion. Now generating that list would be more of a challenge but with much reward from the conversations needed to get the details. Much the way reading a register with so few entries from 10 or 20 yrs previous always grabs me.

In example, reading Tom Sawyer's winter entries from the NEng 3s have raised his image to godlike status in my eyes. I remember reading his winter entry on one remote bushwhack peak in ME. He got there after 3pm (that was the third peak of the day, running a ridge further and further from the road), in January, during -20 weather, alone. Ever break trail bushwhacking alone? Now imagine your really in the middle of no where. His comment was "morale is high" By the way, when does the sun go down in January in northern ME? You have to be there to really appreciate the intensity of his situation. Doing the 770 is nothing compared to the stories he must have! Okay, that's why I like canisters.

I would add Lee Barry and Jim Boomer to the list shown as they both finished the ADKHH and ADK3s (300ft col) in the 70s. Lee was a founding member of the RWMS. Perhaps an ol'timer in the RWMS can review the list and add a few names. It seems that Lee and Jim were early participants in the game of climbing little ones. In my conversation with Lee, a number of years ago, he mentioned the need to determine climbing routes and did not mention others working on the adk3s at the same time, though I never posed that specific question.

He gave me the impression that they were pioneering the way for that era. Of course we all know that we were not the first to summit any given peak, but so many times, in the dacks, I had the impression that no one had been to these peaks in at least 5-10 years before I arrived - based on the lack of disturbance of the moss cover and duff. By contrast, most NEng 3s are trashed from logging or frequently visited and just look like their one step away from having a condo development ... (wow, where did that come from and who knows why I broght it up ?!) Oh yeah. our list show the people that we know to have climbed the peaks, but very posibly others have done it that we don't know.

Just a thought.

While publishing a list seems to encourage more climbing, to 'complete the list', does publishing a list of names who have done it further encourage it?

John's last sentence reminds me of an obvious point I wanted to make:

for the common lists like the NH 48, etc, I think we can all agree that the number of registered completers is a gross underestimation of the total number.

however for the 3K list and other such relatively obscure lists, I suspect the number of "registered" completers (i.e. those listed here, plus the few stragglers that are suspected to be finished but that we don't know about for sure) is much closer to the actual number of people who climb them all.

A confession:

I really struggle with the notion that the 3ks and other obscure lists get so much publicity lately on VFTT (and probably elsewhere, although I don't spend much time "elsewhere"). I like to discuss the fun aspects of the peaks with others and I certainly have emailed some of you "old-timers" for tidbits of info and I definitely enjoy reading the canisters. However, I find I get extremely curmudgeon about the whole letting the cat out of the bag. Of course I'm being selfish, but I can't help worry that when everyone starts hiking the peaks, they get easy. I hike the 3ks b/c I enjoy the challenge of planning routes, the actual routefinding, reading about those who came before me, seeing views that very few others get to see, and of course seeing the forest itself (it's what I do)...

I think back to when I started reading VFTT (~ '98?) and how much information there was. Sure, you could find trail conditions reports for most peaks in the Whites. Sure, there were people you could ask about most places. But now, I see so many websites that give detailed directions, extreme minutiae, and gps plots of every damn peak that person has climbed. While I appreciate the desire to share information with others (I do it lots and it's a natural progression we as a society desire) I somehow struggle with it all.

What the hell fun is it if you can look it up on a website, see a picture of every view you will likely see, see the elevation profile, etc, etc. Now I've moaned to some of you before about this, but I find myself thinking more and more about it. I don't have an answer, I'm just voicing my concern.

As I alluded to not very long ago, it's not crazy to think that the 3ks will become overpopulated (relative term) in the future. Do you think the early pioneers of our hobby thought Owl's Head would be a mundane trip to future peakbaggers?

Exercise:

1) Go to Google and type in something like "hike redington"
2) Compare the response you get to the frequency with which people asked how to get to Redington about 5-10 years ago on VFTT.
3) Now go to Redington and see the herdpath that has developed between it and Crocker (disclaimer - I myself have not been on the herd path but it is frequently referred to here on VFTT)

Maybe I should have saved you all my rambling and just posted the exercise to make my point.

respectfully submitted for your consideraton,
spencer

Tom Sawyer

John, I absolutely agree with your comments on Tom Sawyer. When I read his winter entries in the 3k registers in ME, I am in awe! Some of the ME peaks are brutal with no snow, doing them in the dead of winter truly is an amazing physical and mental feat! He's definitely at the top of my list of wacking legends.

Redington

Spencer, your Redington example is right on the money. When I did it in the eighties, CV Road was gated at the AT crossing, so the hike started there. There was no herdpath, it was a total bushwack, and the register was one of Dennis C.'s pb jars. But at that time, it was just a 3k peak. The only info we had was word of mouth from are other bw friends on what they thought was the "best" approach. This is really a trail hike now.

dms said:

John, I absolutely agree with your comments on Tom Sawyer. When I read his winter entries in the 3k registers in ME, I am in awe! Some of the ME peaks are brutal with no snow, doing them in the dead of winter truly is an amazing physical and mental feat! He's definitely at the top of my list of wacking legends.

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On some days winter peaks can be easier if you get good hard pack snow then you're above the crap. But considering he had 451 winter peaks you know he was doing them in a variety of conditions. In one conversation he mentioned that he would follow the moose postholes because the heat from the moose had firmed up the snow somewhat and made it easier. Ever follow moose postholes? It's a little like regular postholes - ankle twisting, snowshoe breaking purgatory. Except they wander, taking twice the distance to get somewhere. Now imagine that you're doing this because it's actually easier than the alternative!

There's a reason that his #1 for winter 451 has stood as a "one-and-only" for so long. Of course there may be one or two others now.

A perfect example: me.
Before finishing the ADK 46 I had already hiked 15 of the ADK100 including some of the more obscure ones. Where do you think I heard of the list? The internet. Where have I gotten my beta? Either from the internet or electronically from friends I have made over the internet. Am I going to finish it? Damned right. Would I have gotten to the list sans the 'net? I think so but it would have taken me a little longer and my beta would be restricted to the USGS quads and word of mouth.

Do I worry about the trailless lower 54? Not a lot, I believe they will always be kind of obscure and quirky. Does that mean they don't need some sort of organized "protection"? Absolutely not. And to keep going in question mode...Where will that protection/self-policing come from? You guessed it. The internet. Where else? The genie's out of the bottle, better to work from there.

Another question I ask myself: why havn't you bushwhacked up Marcy? Answer: for a reason similar to why I'll probably never hike Washington again. (allthough I have to admit, I'm curious about the big W. in winter....)

spencer said:

John's last sentence reminds me of an obvious point I wanted to make:

** SNIP **

I really struggle with the notion that the 3ks and other obscure lists get so much publicity lately on VFTT (and probably elsewhere, although I don't spend much time "elsewhere"). I like to discuss the fun aspects of the peaks with others and I certainly have emailed some of you "old-timers" for tidbits of info and I definitely enjoy reading the canisters. However, I find I get extremely curmudgeon about the whole letting the cat out of the bag. Of course I'm being selfish, but I can't help worry that when everyone starts hiking the peaks, they get easy. I hike the 3ks b/c I enjoy the challenge of planning routes, the actual routefinding, reading about those who came before me, seeing views that very few others get to see, and of course seeing the forest itself (it's what I do)...

I think back to when I started reading VFTT (~ '98?) and how much information there was. Sure, you could find trail conditions reports for most peaks in the Whites. Sure, there were people you could ask about most places. But now, I see so many websites that give detailed directions, extreme minutiae, and gps plots of every damn peak that person has climbed. While I appreciate the desire to share information with others (I do it lots and it's a natural progression we as a society desire) I somehow struggle with it all.

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WOW, That is eerie. I almost feel as if I wrote that myself. Which probably seems weird because I also could be one of the people Spencer it talking about. I'm gonna do something I don't usually do...... (talk about my site here....feel free to delete it Darren/peakbgr if it inapropriete) I am a sharer I have a website with forums (on a much smaller scale than this). One section of my forums is dedicated to the ADK 100......... It's in a members only section, so it's not available for the whole would, but still......... easy enough

I struggle mightily (daily sometimes) on whether or its the right thing to do.... I've been told by at least one of the posters on this thread (the legends) that it probably contains more info about these peaks than any other site......... That scares me and ALWAYS make me proceed with caution. I keep it up and running primary for reasons I'll try to explain (I hope I can) .......... First you must understand my frame of reference, my post #54 is about as close as I can articulate.

I know that these peaks are getting more traffic. For whatever reason, I get lots of stuff (e-mail, PM's) from people sharing stuff with me and some of it can be quite frightning.

Example - Earlier this summer, I got an unsolicited e-mail from someone with a GPS track log to a peak in the Fishing Brook Range (Private Property). I wrote back and basically said "cool, how did you get permission from the Minerva Hunt Club to get through". I got, in essence, a "I didn't, I just went early in the AM and didn't see a soul all day" There was not a hint that anything they did was wrong

I was MORTIFIED........ Perhaps blitzing peaks was fine back in the day, but with increased traffic and more "boots on the ground" so to speak, I believe PP rights are being ignored and disregarded and IMO that needs to be addressed. This is just ONE of several concerns I see.

So with all this, I (encouraged by a few others) keep my section open for the simple fact that, if people (who are interested in the peaks already) are gonna get info, then they need to GET ALL THE INFO, like private property, information on LNT, thoughtful debates about other issues like canister, flagging whatever. I would rather have more knowledgeable, thoughtful folks that bring more than just a GPS into the woods. If my site (or this one, or any) gives people more info about cautionary issues like PP, LNT, the perils of Route cutting, view creation..... whatever, then perhaps there can be a small (I fully understand my place ) shift in the ratio of "so-whaters" (as Eric called them) and responsible, knowledgeable hikers that will have a greater global understanding that "collectively" we must treat these areas differently.

I could by 100% wrong and I expect you'll tell me if you think I am..... (and thats okay too). Please understand though, it not driven by any "look what I can do" crap. Because quite honestly, with a GPS, it really is NOTHING these days to get to the summit of N. River other than a fun day walking in the woods. Getting there LEGALLY (w/permission) in a manner that respects not only the environment, but also maintains the ethereal integrity of the summit area is a much greater challenge. And, if I might add, gave me much more satisfaction than just reaching the summit ever did.

As for some of the other things Spencer said....... I can't agree enough and a glance at my rules #7 and #8 should prove it.

7) There will be no public posting of specific GPS data for any Adirondack backcountry location. This specifically includes tracklog data. Individual waypoint data is fine so long as multiple waypoint data is is a least .75 miles separate from each other. General verbal route description are fine, but please refrain from specific route data unless it is in the done in a non-puplic way (PM or E-mail). This rule is enacted in an specific attempt to prevent "herd path" formation along specific Adirondack bushwhack routes.

8) Adkhighpeaks.com is a strong supporter of Leave No Trace (LNT) principles and we do not condone or advocate ANY alteration to the Adirondack backcountry as it pertains to information found here. It is understood that if any information from this forum leads you into the backcountry of the park, you will travel, camp and otherwise practice responsible LNT principles when doing so. Any evidence route cutting, view improvement or other significant permanent unnatural alterations/destruction discovered to have been done as the result of information gathered here will result in a automatic lifetime ban from the site and referral (including e-mail) to the NYS DEC.

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Sorry if this seems like grandstanding, but I think that it's important for people to understand that providing information/education in and of itself is NOT always a bad thing, so long as do so respectfully and with the understanding of the responsibilities that go with it.

Sorry if this is too long and please understand, I fully know that I do not have ANY answers these questions. I'm fully aware that I am just a schmuck that likes to hike and probably overthinks these issues WAY to much. Perhaps if I had a life it would help.