Summit Registers

[dr_wu002]

Solutions?

One thing to remember is how powerful the net is. And how much ONE PERSON can do.

So bushwhacking will only remain ok but only if few do it, herd paths are unsound pathways and trails, if built correctly, which is something hard to come by in the Northeast, are generally a good idea, but they do make wild land less wild and open up the chances for overuse and abuse.

The fact that lists are being disseminated, and discussions like this taking place, means the time for these peaks to remain in their current state is limited.

Once this cycle starts there is resentment by those who wish to have the area pristine. How many people is this experience meant for? Who has the right to such and experience? It is impossible to have a answer to such a problem.

I meant not to be preachy, although I acknowledge that my viewpoint can't help but be somewhat selfish and johnny-come-lately. I think it's perfectly okay to look at ourselves with deep criticism and then think about if and how things could be different.

boy, you really have to like whackin' to be out there to begin with. it ain't easy.

But should I "publish" my reports at all?

But it's true the best way to protect the woods we love is never to speak of them.

This is one of the best threads of 2005 on VFTT. Nice to see the civil discourse as well.

People here have made some excellent arguments. It’s nice to see some of the ‘experts’ drawn out as well as well as the insightful posts by everyone posting here. However, lots of statements – are there solutions? What are possible outcomes for 10, 20 years from now?

Will people ever, in abundance, ever like bushwhacking enough or have the time, dedication & perseverance for the 451 or the 770 (hell, what about the NE US 2K’s!? ) that it’ll mean much for the non-hundred highest peaks? Are the 100 Highest all destined to have trails? It seems like ~50 peaks is a good list for people to accomplish in a year. ~100 peaks may be the limit for most people as many of us also like to revisit our favorites. That leaves several 100 3K’s on the bottom of the list as well as 4K’s with insufficient col (<200’ ie. NW Hancock, SW Twin). Will these peaks (lower peaks on various 3K lists) see dramatically increased travel? I still don’t think so. But the lower 50 on the various 100 highest lists will demand solutions to various use/erosion problems. I’d like to see what people have to say about solutions though.

-Dr. Wu

 

[John H Swanson]

So to get the discussion back on track...

John, are you saying that it doesn't matter what info is out there or how detailed it is? It sounds like you are saying these paths are going to form regardless of what info is available or how cryptic we are in describing routes. Should, then, we be more detailed to concentrate traffic to a single route?

Tough call. Once the masses "find" an area (with internet information availability aka advertizing) then impact is inevitible. Once impact occurs then, perhaps a path or trail would save some of the wilderness from destruction.

Of course I also think that the best thing is to stay out completely. These words from my fingers is like the pot calling the kettle black. But it's true the best way to protect the woods we love is never to speak of them. Many outdoor magazine authors know this. Publish and it will be ruined. The folks out west call the book "the 100 best hikes in the Cascades" "the 100 ruined hikes."

When this subject comes up, I ask the question "If you knew an area that was pure wilderness, untouched by human, Would you go there?" Most of the time I ask this question I get a response, yes. All those people are drawn to the unspoiled unvisited area and that draw is what ruins it.

 

[Neil]

Putting a map in front of several people and comparing their proposed routes is a fascinating idea (and could easily be done on-line). I bet we'd see widely varied route proposals on some mtns. and fairly similar ones on others.

On a recent trip up Avalanche Mtn. in the ADK's which sees a fair number of hikers for a trailless HH there was no sign of a trail except for an old tote road we followed for about 20 mins. At the top was a very faint trail over the last 50 feet. I know that at least 15 people have done it this year based on responses to my TR. It turns out we all went by completely different routes both up and down.
OTOH between Saddleback and Jay, descending Saddleback it was obvious which way previous people had detoured the cliffs we encountered. A peak to peak route increases the odds of everyboby following the same basic line I'm sure. In spite of that, once we cleared the cliffs we never saw any signs of previous travellers' passage.
The point is that when it is obvious which is the line of least resistance a trail will form. OTOH a mountain is a lot of real estate. If the relatively few people who hike them make up their own routes then these mountains can be enjoyed and maintained indefinitely in the state that makes them so attractive. Sometimes a trained eye can pick up the faintest of a whisper of a trail. Insted of following it instinctively maybe it should be studiously avoided.

I'm starting to wonder if there shouldn't be some sort of a "bushwacker/peakbagger suggested code" formulated so that people would be more sensitive to these issues. When I did my first true ADK bushwhack none of these questions ever crossed my mind. It's my exposure via the net that has raised my awareness. It's fairly simple isn't it? ie no one wants herd trails to form on those mtns. that are currently trailless. No view improvements or flagging (duh!) either.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

This brings to mind a dilemna we (ADK, 46ers, DEC) are currently facing. It illustrates something that fits in here.

There is a herd path from Gray to Marcy. We (46ers, ADK, summit stewards) scouted it to try to find the best route over the alpine area. Our conclusion was that there was no best path. Our recomendation (so far) is that we do not recoment or encourage this route.

However, we KNOW that people will not follow our recomendation. EVen though it is not much longer to descend gray, then climb Marcy, it SEEMS a lot faster to cut straight across.

So, we let people continue, and let these multiple paths through the vegetation continue? Or do we mark the prefered path, to keep the destruction to one area.

Like I said, our preference would be that people do not take this route, but we know that will not work. Google on "Marcy to Gray".

Guy Waterman covers this fairly well in one of his chapters in Backwoods Ethics"

Also a thought on what will happen in the future. Just look at the past. And realize now, that technology is accelerating the time things have taken.

Has anyone ever had a remote untrailed unpopular peak they enjoyed.. years ago.. then found a path/trail cut? It is sad. Will your kids find such a peak? Will their kids? At least there are memories.

 

[mavs00]

Tough call. Once the masses "find" an area (with internet information availability aka advertising) then impact is inevitable. Once impact occurs then, perhaps a path or trail would save some of the wilderness from destruction.

Of course I also think that the best thing is to stay out completely. These words from my fingers is like the pot calling the kettle black. But it's true the best way to protect the woods we love is never to speak of them. Many outdoor magazine authors know this. Publish and it will be ruined. The folks out west call the book "the 100 best hikes in the Cascades" "the 100 ruined hikes."

When this subject comes up, I ask the question "If you knew an area that was pure wilderness, untouched by human, Would you go there?" Most of the time I ask this question I get a response, yes. All those people are drawn to the unspoiled unvisited area and that draw is what ruins it.

Very true, but in the case of the HH......... It's my understanding It was put in the back of the ADK book, by Tony Goodwin (who I hope weighs in), for the express purpose taking boots off some mountains and placing them on others in order to spread out the devastating impact caused by overuse of first one. Thus creating/publishing one list in an effort to improve the another list.

Hiking registration has gone down in the last few years in the high peaks. WHY???? This may mean nothing, but..... In my case, Ive hike 23 peaks this year, 2 high peaks and 21 HH (including 16 bushwhacks). This year I've kinda focused on my current passion, but be assured, had I not been busy hiking LPP and TR, I would have been hiking something?? (say Seymour and Couch). So, in one one respect, my boots on LPP (which nature has long reclaimed), DID have a positive impact SOMEWHERE, albeit a small one.

I wonder if the solution is so easy that we just say, well "ABANDON SHIP" on numbers 1-46, so long as #47-100 are saved....... Are we willing to do that?

We can agree that the magical feeling of accomplishment and wildness are deep set and ingrained on some of the lower peaks, but that doesn't mean that pure eye-poetry that is the summit of Basin, Haystack et all, are not a very close second. After all, thats where most of us start. It was those spots that put me on the path of my current thinking after all. So perhaps next weeks hike up ST#5 will in some way spare one of the greater peaks my sizable 195# frame beating up on it for the day. I'm going hiking, and I'll be hiking SOMETHING. If it's not one, it's the other. Which choice is better?

Just thoughts......

 

[Papa Bear]

The Unnamed Lake
- Frederick George Scott (1861-1944)

It sleeps among the thousand hills
Where no man ever trod,
And only nature's music fills
The silences of God.

Great mountains tower above its shore,
Green rushes fringe its brim,
And o're its breast for evermore
The wanton breezes skim.

Dark clouds that intercept the sun
Go there in Spring to weep,
And there, when Autumn days are done,
White mists lie down to sleep.

Sunrise and sunset crown with gold
The peaks of ageless stone,
Where winds have thundered from of old
And storms have set their throne.

No echoes of the world afar
Disturb it night or day,
The sun and shadow, moon and star
Pass and repass for aye.

'Twas in the grey of early dawn,
When first the lake we spied,
And fragments of a cloud were drawn
Half down the mountain side.

Along the shore a heron flew,
And from a speck on high,
That hovered in the deepening blue,
We heard the fish-hawk's cry.

Among the cloud-capt solitudes,
No sound the silence broke,
Save when, in whispers down the woods,
The guardian mountains spoke.

Through tangled brush and dewy brake,
Returning whence we came,
We passed in silence, and the lake
We left without a name.

 

[blacklab2020]

A very humbling thread.

I came in late on it, and am taken aback how most of my thoughts and feelings about these peaks have been shared through the words of others that came before me.

Excellent.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

and placing them on others in order to spread out the devastating impact caused by overuse of first one. .......

So, in one one respect, my boots on LPP (which nature has long reclaimed), DID have a positive impact SOMEWHERE, albeit a small one.

Unless you buy into the concept of 'sacrificial areas' (DEC does not).

Pave a road up Whiteface, and let it 'die' to keep the traffic out of other areas. Allow all kinds of camping at Marcy Dam. so that people won't be going to other places.

A different philosophy.

 

[post'r boy]

"the world, she is a flat"!!!! cristopher columbus

Intersting point, but from my experience, this action as an attempt to minimize inpact on the peaks will not succeed. Here's why: if someone is looking to climb a peak by the most easy route or should I say practical route, then the route selected will quite often be the same as one used by others. We all start from a road and often look to get close to the peak and preference existing paths or skidder routes. As long as hikers have these preferences, then nearly the same route will be used. Put a topo in front of an experience whacker and ask him/her to select the route thay would take to the summit and there will be a fairly high probability that close to the same route will be taken. Unless they are avoiding this route intentionally by choosing a different way.

Consider a micro example. You get to a large dense blowdown in the woods. It is perhaps 100 ft wide. No matter where you approach for that 100 ft wide obstacle, chances are you will pass within 5 ft of either end. Same example for a cliff band. When walking along the base of a cliff looking for a route up, odds are you will use the same route as a predessor. How else would I have found a Nalgene water bottle between Allen and McDonnell?

These obstacles small or large will repetively focus us on the same routes. Further to this point, as hikers nears the summit, they will be drawn to the center focal point.

With these few examples, paths will be formed and followed regardless of how obsure we are in describing routes.

...And while a single plant or tree may recover from impact, shallow forest duff and fragile moss can show our trace for quite some time.

nor will passing out the list to other people protect these "sacred peaks". what percentage of people who read any of this will actually set out and whack these peaks, find the same route,damage the same ground,and how long would you guess that there will be no more wilderness on any of these peaks. by simply talking about this subject on this thread what do you think the impact will be for future generations? and do "any" of us belong on these mountains?? what do you think the moose think when they smell your scent on the branches you brush up against?
and your point is......???????
i very kind man offered me the 770 list through this website,actually a man who made the list. i accepted.
what do you suggest i do with it?
99.9% of my post's you'd be hard pressed to even find which way i went in from.
sample post
mountain name and trail= xyz mountain,no trail
special required equipment= human body + (whom ever i whacked it with)
comments= nice whack with x y and z.
think you could find the way i took up this trailless peak??
all the best!! neighbor
p.s. one last question,
so,ultimately who is responsible for the demise of these peaks,the ones who have hiked them all and made a list, that inevitably gets passed around, or the ones that recieve the list and find it very interesting to go there?
by simply making the list sets a ball rolling. i personally am not trying to place blame on anyone who makes lists,hikes mountains,and the like. maybe we should all hike the mountains we see out there and never say a word about it.
how does anyone find out about anything without conversation. we've all been to places and thought what a beautiful place,glad i got here before the crowd did. then we all go home and talk about how we found this beautiful place and had it all to ourselves! what is spoiled,and what isn't spoiled??? when i get there all alone it's already spoiled,cause i'm there, wild no more,a human has been there. so who is anyone to say when and how much any place should be visited? i get the jist of everything said on this thread so far, here's a list of mountains that i've hiked, take it,hike it and don't tell anyone about the wonderful time you had. has anyone here been to a forgien country??? did you think it was beautiful? did you go there because it "wasn't touristy"? have you climbed the 7 summits" the 14er's? hiked any long distance trails? enjoyed a quiet beach? snorkeled a remote reef? how many of you have a cell phone, sat. dish,enjoy watching mountaineering documentries.then you're all part of a problem, it's called being human.
in posting anything about my journey to these peaks, i too wondered if i should post a report,asked around and got a sure why not from people in these bushwhacking circles. someone even said that those folks might like to here about my journey,a kind of revisiting of the peak for them,and seeing that the person they offered help to is actually hiking the peaks, not just sitting on the list.anyway, i'll be out there on all the mystery peaks of the world,and please.... don't interupt my solitude by showing up when i'm there...O.K.?

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

John Swanson noted: The folks out west call the book "the 100 best hikes in the Cascades" "the 100 ruined hikes." Ditto in the rock climbing realm, where "50 Most Classic Climbs in North America" became "50 most Crowded Climbs..." If it is any indication for whackin', the membership in the Highpointers Club rocketed upwards for a few years after its foray onto the WWW, but I believe membership has leveled off the past couple of years.

 

[bigmoose]

You bring up an interesting point, Post'r. As it is, you and I and several others are making entries in the "Trail Conditions" section about hikes in which there are no trails!!

Post'r gives no information about his route, so his entries don't qualify as "trail conditions." And, as such, he's no pied piper of peakbagging. So what's the harm of trumpeting another successful bushwack if it doesn't lead to successive bushwacks over the same route? No harm at all? Or is this moot, as "trail conditions" isn't part of the entry at all?

On occasion I've posted trail conditions up to the disembark point of the bushwack, then vague hints about the trailless continuation to the peak. Am I encouraging others to follow in my steps? Is Post'r?

With the profusion of discussion over 3k lists, hundred highest lists, sharing of tracklogs over the internet, and the perceived impending loss of wilderness on these heretofore seldom visited peaks, refraining from posting bushwacks as trail conditions - whether or not routes are disclosed - might result in others finding their own peaks and hike them their own way.

In any event, I think I'm done entering bushwacks under "trail conditions."
You may find me on occasion in "trip reports."
jt

 

[MarkJ]

Most of the New England 3krs we wack were clearcut for lumber back in the day or burnt by a forest fire....it's all come back lookin' good..wack-wise ,you come across the same old thing ,over and over,Moose and deer paths along all 3k ridges;leading to the highpoints where we wack.We,as the visitors to these trailless peaks generally follow the animal paths.I see more damage from weather and natural progression done on these remote summits ,than human intervention.Wackers I know leave no trace of their hike up there except the jar sign in........MJ

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Most of the New England 3krs we wack were clearcut for lumber back in the day or burnt by a forest fire....it's all come back lookin' good.

Recovery Time. Given sufficient time, anything will come back.

Wackers I know leave no trace of their hike up there except the jar sign in.

Not exactly true. And recovery time comes into play here. You do leave a trace. You compact the soil, break a few branches, etc. No sweat. The place wil recover from this quickly.... unless someone else comes along inflicting the same kind of 'damage' before the recovery time has elapsed.

Again, my analogy. Walk across a grass field. You've left no trace, right? Then go to some kind of campus, where everyone takes shortcuts across a grass field, and a path has been worn. Each one 'left no trace', but collectively, they left one heck of a trace. Similar in the woods. It's the numbers.

People will say that in the forest, everyone will take different routes. This isn't exactly true, either. At least their paths are not random. Consider this: You are in a certain place, and want to get 50 feet ahead. You choose a route: which tree to go around, under, etc. Why did you choose that route? Because it looked easiest or interesting. Now, if you choose that route, others will most likely do the same. A bit of a path develops. As a bit of a path develops. In time, there are a bunch of little paths, and they gradually get connected.

This is how herd paths in the Adirondacks developped. Not from someone marking or laying out a route (there are exceptions). Given enough people, IT DOES HAPPEN.

It's the numbers.

 

[post'r boy]

hear no evil,see no evil,speak no evil

One thing to remember is how powerful the net is. And how much ONE PERSON can do. I'm starting to realize the power of the net, when I see that google has stuff on ME, going back 21 years. Almost half my life on google!

Things get archived and indexed and are searchable. Copies are made as well. All it takes, is one person, posting the GPS waypoints to a route. IT is there! For everyone! There can be 10,000 people keeping quiet about something, but that one person can open it up. Given time, it will become a popular route. Not because it is good, but because it is easy.

Remember that.

And Eric. When you say the responsibility of making a mess is the person doing it, I'm not really sure you've hit on the problem. Look at the ADK 46 untrailled peaks. Look what has happened to them. It isn't the litter. It isn't the flagging. Their wilderness has been taken away.

If one person a year climbs a peak, that peak might be considered wild. If 100 a day climb it, it isn't. Where is does the white turn to gray turn to black?

What drives a person to want to share his hiking experience with another? We don't necessarily do this with other things we enjoy.

google new england 3k summits. should we stop talking now? should this thread be erased? it got 5 stars and great reviews from members on this site.

 

[mavs00]

This is how herd paths in the Adirondacks developed. Not from someone marking or laying out a route (there are exceptions). Given enough people, IT DOES HAPPEN.

It's the numbers.

Your points are reasoned and well taken. I also agree that it not only DOES HAPPEN, but it IS HAPPENING right now. But, what do WE DO about it is the real question. You cannot unring a bell and I do not believe that we'll all just say, "wow, this is a problem, we better stop whacking". So the question remains......... What can be done?

Most of us are collectively unwilling to completely abandon this bad habit of ours that has us bushwhacking to remote points/summits (be it part of some obscure list, or because you promised yourself "you will whack til you die" ). The barn door is now open. So answers like "Stop publishing lists, don't form clubs, don't put a canister there or don't publish BW routes on VFTT" are really NOT PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS because (IMO) they aim at the fallacy that these peaks are done simple to check them off lists. IMO, This activity provides many of us with spiritual rejuvenation, or scratches an "adventurers" itch, or perhaps it just soothes the primeval wandering human spirit inside some of us that we no longer feel as strongly on trailed peaks. Lists may focus us and point the way, but they do not CAUSE us to engage in this activity, not for long anyway.

So if most of us are unwilling to stop, the question becomes..... What can we do to "LIMIT" the impact that our participation in this activity causes so that the integrity and spirit of why we do it in the first place isn't taken away from us BECAUSE we do it. I believe there is a balance, SOMEWHERE in there.

I also agree, it's not a huge issue right now (as some have said) because there may only be a handful (or less) hitting most of these places each year anyway and it'll take much more traffic before "real" herd paths become an issue. Thats true, and untrue at the same time. I see these issues partially cropping up NOW. It's totally true that on almost every b-whack I've done this summer, I saw almost NO TRACES (or only occasional ones) all the way up until I got within 25-50' (or more) of the actual summit. At about that point, pick up a little whisper of a very subtle path to a little "unnatural" clearing (only a few feet in some cases) that represents the summit. Perhaps there is a jar, or a little piece flagging there, but you KNOW, you ain't the first one here. As it stands, for the ADK HH whacks (I've been on anyway) you get pure b-whack delights right up til you get close to the summit, than you hit the inevitable (short) path to the "human zone", and you'll remain there until to leave the summit and re-enter the "forest" again to the , you might even crash around a bit "just in case" there is a view while in the "human zone" (thus extending it). You can take the flagging down, and you can bring the jar/canister down, but that alone will likely NOT erase this summit "human zone" nor the short path to get there.

Next year, when the next dozen that climb this peak they will likely extend this summit "human zone" from 25 feet to say 40 feet as those next hikers might recognize it faster (due to last years couple boots) and hit the scent of the path a little sooner........ Again, no big deal in and of itself/ After all, there is still alot of b-whack joy on the peak to get your fill. Eventually, as pete says, people can extend that summit "human zone" all the way back to a trail or where you parked your car in the form of a continuous herd path. This, I guess, is what happened after YEARS and YEARS on the trailless 46. So it's not "some theory", it's a when thing, not an if thing.

The problems magnify when someone brings a "sven saw" (or whatever it's called) and says "hey, if we just nip the top of that tree and this tree here, we'll get a tiny, unobtrusive (but REAL) little profile view of Mt. Huge. Just a little one" (might only be as innocent as pushing over a dead tree). Next guy comes along and say's "Ohhhhh, nifty little view, lets just push this other tree out of the way and we'll get both Mt. HUGE and HUGER in the picture. So on and so forth. The "human zone" expands.

My whole point is, none us us WANTS (and some even take great pains not to) cause "individual" harm, but we all might accidently cause "collective" harm along the way. We're not willing to stop apparently, so lets look to the reality of the situation and start our search for solutions there, rather than the fallacy of the situation and the pretend solutions can be found there (i.e. maybe if we pretend the list isn't there, or we remove every jar or piece of flagging, etc.... the human zone and the little path leading to em will all go away).

I don't know if this even make sense. I'm just typing at this point

 

[Peakbagr]

The last post is right on the money. Further reinforced by JS's observation about the little paths that form around cliff faces, natural gullies, and open areas around blowdown.
Tim and others are correct when they observe the "genie being out of the bottle" on the ADK HH as the interest in these mountains is accelerating at a very quick pace.

We are clearly at a threshold and its important that understand that hikers are going to walk thru it. Do we observe or help direct?

 

[Pete_Hickey]

So the question remains......... What can be done?

The first step, is to realize the consequence of our actions. We are not alone in this world. Realize, that 'chatting' on the Internet, is not the same as talking to a few friends around a campfite.

This, I guess, is what happened after YEARS and YEARS on the trailless 46.

Yes, but things are happening FASTER now. Technology, from GoreTex to GPS, is allowing people to do things more easily than in the past. Information travels fast. What was YEARS and YEARS, will just be years.

I remember, several years ago, the "bit-bit man" posted something about the Allen (winter) trail being broken. That weekend, there were 19 cars at the Allen trailhead. Another time, while staying/working with the caretaker at Johns Brook, he said to me. "Something strange is going on. In the past two weeks, I've met dozens of people climbing xxxxx slide. I don'T know why it suddenly became so popular. It had been posted on the net (here).

No, I don't use these as examples of damage, trace-leaving, but as examples of how fast the posting of something can have an effect. Twenty years ago, it took YEARS for word of mouth to spread things around.

Realizing the consequences of what you do is important. Back in the 70's we didn't, and we screwed up. Now, we are more aware. At least some of us.

"hey, if we just nip the top of that tree and this tree here, we'll get a tiny (but cool) little profile view

Not here, but someday, remind me to start a 'Historic views' thread.

 

[slamdog]

very interesting

This is something that I have not put a lot of thought into, but it causes me to step back and ponder many good points that have been brought up here. Ward and I have been working on (and recently completed) our adk46. We have been in constant awe of the trailwork doen by the crews. We had made the decision, that once we were done with our first "list" that it would be time to give back to the trails that have taken such good care of us. Although Ward and I are booked into camp until December 5th, we're ready to start working on our "work patches" that Pete Hickey mentioned. In fact while we were ascending Cliff last weekend, we said we were coming back with axes and saws to clean things up. As Ward is up at camp this weekend and away from the computer, I would like to also volunteer him to move the Uphill Brook privy. We've moved the the one at camp a few times, so he has practice!

So Pete, anytime after December 5th we'll take you up on the work offer. Just let us know. slamdog/Lance

 

[post'r boy]

The last post is right on the money. Further reinforced by JS's observation about the little paths that form around cliff faces, natural gullies, and open areas around blowdown.
Tim and others are correct when they observe the "genie being out of the bottle" on the ADK HH as the interest in these mountains is accelerating at a very quick pace.

We are clearly at a threshold and its important that understand that hikers are going to walk thru it. Do we observe or help direct?

i will help take a definate action to help reduce travel to these peaks.
my "list" is as follows!
#1 i will no longer post trail conditions on the web.
#2 i will abandon my idea of doing the 770 x 12
#3 i will post no "completion of any list" hikes anywhere on the web.(i always thought this was a silly idea anyway)
#4 i'm looking into buying 2 moose hoofs from a hunter and will figure out how to attach them to my sneakers.
#5 i always thought posting reports to bushwhack peaks in winter was bad. it's way to easy to follow someone elses broken route thus creating more damage in the same areas.
#6 i won't start a hiking website in my lifetime!
#7 i won't move north to be away from the inner city,i'll just put up with all the noise!
#8 list? what list? i'm lost!! please don't follow me,i have no idea where i am!!
#9 even though i get seasick in the shower,i'm currently looking for swimming lists of the world. (less impact)
#10 will spend the rest of my life trying to invent a hovercraft whackin' hoof!!
#11 i will refuse to go to "any" gatherings in the future(not that i went to them anyway),instead i will seek a life of solitude in the basement of my apartment!!
#12 i will propose to the next administration a national "stay the hell out of the woods week"!

 

[Neil]

Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it.

Everybody seems to be in agreement on:
-herd trail formation on trailless peaks is undesirable.
-herd trails can form quickly and easily
-increasing numbers of people are doing the trailless peaks heightening the risk of trail formation
-internet is playing a role in publicizing these peaks and is partly (greatly?)responsible for the increase.
-the once trailless ADK 46er peaks are an example of what can happen to the now trailless peaks.

Whither now? One can attempt a passive effort. Ie. remain silent about one's own trips. The way things are now it looks like an active (proactive) effort is required. If the net is opening these areas up then it is an obvious medium for their preservation. I'm sure the idea of some sort of an internet based HH organization makes some people cringe (writhe in anger?). However an official,structured entity has a much better chance of influencing the course of events, contributing to the updating and creation of UMP's etc. than do a few posters on a forum.

The big question, as alluded to by Pete Hickey, is: would such an organization preserve the pristine nature of the Kilburns and Sawtooths or help ruin them through increased exposure?