Summit Registers

[Neil]

Like I said (actually it was Bigmoose), the genie's out of the bottle. The next step in the discussion is: what to do now?

 

[imarchant]

wow, some really great posts here! It really is inspiring and educational. Mavs, I believe that your posting and forums are a real service. You speak loud and clear about the importance of stewardship for the mountains and backwoods. I year or so ago I thought you were a little fanatical on the subject. ie. not posting routes, etc. The more I read about these subjects from you and the peakbagging legends, the more I see the points you are making and the importance of them. Keep it up!

 

[mavs00]

The more I read about these subjects from you and the other peakbagging legends, the more I see the points you are making and the importance of them. Keep it up!

Thanks....................... But please, I must CORRECT this line "from you and the other peakbagging legends".

I do NOT nor WILL I EVER deserve mention among the Legends mentioned here on this thread or elsewhere. I have strong opinions, am vocal and freely post what I think and feel. You may even agree with some of the things I post, but that by NO means puts me in the league of some the others posting and mentioned in this thread. The mere thought makes me cringe, and does a real disservice to the accomplishments of those amazing pioneers of NE Bushwhacking. I hope and beleive that was a mistype on your part.

If you (everyone) take one thing from this thread, understand that there is a huge difference between true bushwhacking pioneers and some neophyte, frequent poster on a hiking BB, no matter how much you agree with my thoughts and feelings (which I appreciate greatly). We all may be similar in our love and passion for the these places, but any similarity between me and people like E. Schlimmer, Swanson, & D. Crispo ends there.

Sorry, I really needed to interject that............. Carry on, this is a phenomenal (and very important) debate. One that is LONG overdo in such a public way, IMO.

 

[bill bowden]

Obscure lists

In the past, the NHHH and NE 3000 footer lists were not widely disctributed because of concerns about excessive bushwhacking degrading the experience; inexperienced bushwhackers leading to more S&R activity and (my phrasing) people hiking the lists for the "wrong reasons"

For the NE 100, concern about excessive activity seems quite well-founded; although the limited numbers of people attempting the other peaks appear swamped out by befuddled cell phone users.

As for the "wrong reasons" one can have quite legitimate thoughts here. But I do wonder if my own reasons for bushwhacking might be considered as wrong, even what a "right" reason might consist of?

 

[Papa Bear]

Very nice thread.

I hold myself to be a conservationist but also a "journalist". By that I mean not someone who works for a newspaper, but someone who writes journals. I take pride in my reports and I am pleased that many of you have found value in them

But I really write them for myself. It allows me to experience an adventure 3 (or more) times: first when I hike the hike, second when I write it down and third (and fourth, fifth, etc.) when I read it later. It's amazing when I reread something I did a few years ago how it all comes back and equally amazing how much of the details had fallen out of my working memory. In a way my reports are like (big) canisters where I can look in them and find stuff that happened on a peak long before (in this case it's what happened with me.)

Now the conflict is obvious to anyone who has read through this thread. My reports might make it too easy for someone to find a peak, choose a route, etc. and thereby contribute to the problem of overuse. I've thought about this conflict more and more over the last year or so.

I have no definitive answer, but in some ways I've changed my behavior: I never put in compass bearings, or any GPS data (although I may occasionally use a GPS and I would mention that fact in a report). In fact I wouldn't give this type of data to someone even if they asked. And I am being more and more vague about bushwhack routes. Where before (my Mendon Report for example) I might say something like "go up such-and-such road to the second left turn after the third stream crossing ...", now I might say "we went in from the southwest".

But should I "publish" my reports at all? That's a hard one. Now that I've finished a couple of lists of popular peaks and moved on to less popular ones, I will certainly be vague about routes and perhaps I won't post everything here. Maybe I will leave it at something like "Yesterday Spencer and I did the 2 Lily Bays and then drove up the Golden Road to Baxter and did Barren", and let folks ask me for details if they're interested.

In any case, I'm thinking about the right thing to do, whatever that is. Talking with hiking friends and reading things like this thread certainly helps with the process.

 

[post'r boy]

i only post in trail conditions and am usually vague to the extreme as you might know from reading my report. i don't think routes and maps of routes should be put on websites. it's up to the bushwhacker to figure out his/her route in my eyes. i rarely even ask others for help with a peak,i figure just go and figure it out for myself. i have asked for some help from some folks but they usually give vague routes. (i.e.) from the cardinal points. i've yet to run into anyone out there when i'm whackin'.
boy, you really have to like whackin' to be out there to begin with. it ain't easy.

 

[mavs00]

Got Mav to agree to let me repost his deletes. He has earned the right to contribute to this thread by word and deed.

Peakbagr

 

[Peakbagr]

I'm going to give you a red square for saying that. You're the "eloquent voice" of the new generation of HH peakbaggers, and do a pretty mean job on the bushwacking end as well.

Say it ain't so, say it ain't so.

 

[Rik]

Please disregard my prior postings............ I do not think I have earned the right to discuss the HH, nor will I ever

I think this is too bad. What gives someone the "right"? Do you have to climb a certain number of peaks? Be on one of the short lists? I think new and fresh ideas are good for the discussion. The variety of experiences on this forum is what makes it so good. I hope others don't feel like they "don't have the right". This has been one of the best threads I've read in a while.

 

[John H Swanson]

i only post in trail conditions and am usually vague to the extreme as you might know from reading my report. i don't think routes and maps of routes should be put on websites. it's up to the bushwhacker to figure out his/her route in my eyes. i rarely even ask others for help with a peak,i figure just go and figure it out for myself. i have asked for some help from some folks but they usually give vague routes. (i.e.) from the cardinal points. i've yet to run into anyone out there when i'm whackin'.
boy, you really have to like whackin' to be out there to begin with. it ain't easy.

Intersting point, but from my experience, this action as an attempt to minimize inpact on the peaks will not succeed. Here's why: if someone is looking to climb a peak by the most easy route or should I say practical route, then the route selected will quite often be the same as one used by others. We all start from a road and often look to get close to the peak and preference existing paths or skidder routes. As long as hikers have these preferences, then nearly the same route will be used. Put a topo in front of an experience whacker and ask him/her to select the route thay would take to the summit and there will be a fairly high probability that close to the same route will be taken. Unless they are avoiding this route intentionally by choosing a different way.

Consider a micro example. You get to a large dense blowdown in the woods. It is perhaps 100 ft wide. No matter where you approach for that 100 ft wide obstacle, chances are you will pass within 5 ft of either end. Same example for a cliff band. When walking along the base of a cliff looking for a route up, odds are you will use the same route as a predessor. How else would I have found a Nalgene water bottle between Allen and McDonnell?

These obstacles small or large will repetively focus us on the same routes. Further to this point, as hikers nears the summit, they will be drawn to the center focal point.

With these few examples, paths will be formed and followed regardless of how obsure we are in describing routes.

...And while a single plant or tree may recover from impact, shallow forest duff and fragile moss can show our trace for quite some time.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Now the conflict is obvious to anyone who has read through this thread. My reports might make it too easy for someone to find a peak, choose a route, etc. and thereby contribute to the problem of overuse. I've thought about this conflict more and more over the last year or so.

Personally, I do not think posting a route description makes it more likely that I will undertake a certain hike. I usually decide that I want to hike a certain peak first, and then start doing research on it afterwards.

 

[spencer]

I'm not sure what I stirred up...

I just wanted to voice my concerns as I've been thinking about this stuff for a long while now. I meant not to be preachy, although I acknowledge that my viewpoint can't help but be somewhat selfish and johnny-come-lately. I think it's perfectly okay to look at ourselves with deep criticism and then think about if and how things could be different.

I think it's important that we are here discussing this stuff.

spencer

 

[Rik]

It's pretty simply................ We're in this thread with people like D. Crispo, J. Swanson, and E. Schlimmer, who not only are ON these list but ARE these friggen lists. GIANTS people, and I have immense respect for them.

That said...... here I am................ maybe a couple, few dozen ADK HH B-whacks in and I spouting, we NEED to do THIS and and we NEED to do THAT..... Private Property this and cannister that....... When I re-read it a short bit ago, I said to my self, what an arrogant P****, then looked left and saw my name

Don't get me wrong, I love these places (probably unhealthily so), and I'm sure I not can even articulate the spiritual renewal and utter comfort I feel tucked away in some trees at 3480' on a plot of land that doesn't even have a name (wanna quess the range , sorry). But still, it came accross, to me (which is what counts to me) as awfully preacy. Rather than re-write every thing in new tone, with appropriete deference, I just thought it easier to NUKE EM I did not see it as that big a deal, I though many might agree with me actually.

I just read your posts as your opinion. Just as valid as anyone elses. I also have respect for the guys you listed, and the other pioneers mentioned earlier in the thread, and their input is very valuable to the discussion but part of the discussion is about what is happening now and in the future. People like you and I are going to keep climbing these peaks and it is worth talking about. Again I don't see what qualifies anyone to speak to this issue or for that matter what disqualifies someone. There is always someone that has climbed more peaks out there.

 

[Rik]

Intersting point, but from my experience, this action as an attempt to minimize inpact on the peaks will not succeed. Here's why: if someone is looking to climb a peak by the most easy route or should I say practical route, then the route selected will quite often be the same as one used by others. We all start from a road and often look to get close to the peak and preference existing paths or skidder routes. As long as hikers have these preferences, then nearly the same route will be used. Put a topo in front of an experience whacker and ask him/her to select the route thay would take to the summit and there will be a fairly high probability that close to the same route will be taken. Unless they are avoiding this route intentionally by choosing a different way.

Consider a micro example. You get to a large dense blowdown in the woods. It is perhaps 100 ft wide. No matter where you approach for that 100 ft wide obstacle, chances are you will pass within 5 ft of either end. Same example for a cliff band. When walking along the base of a cliff looking for a route up, odds are you will use the same route as a predessor. How else would I have found a Nalgene water bottle between Allen and McDonnell?

These obstacles small or large will repetively focus us on the same routes. Further to this point, as hikers nears the summit, they will be drawn to the center focal point.

With these few examples, paths will be formed and followed regardless of how obsure we are in describing routes.

...And while a single plant or tree may recover from impact, shallow forest duff and fragile moss can show our trace for quite some time.

So to get the discussion back on track...

John, are you saying that it doesn't matter what info is out there or how detailed it is? It sounds like you are saying these paths are going to form regardless of what info is available or how cryptic we are in describing routes. Should, then, we be more detailed to concentrate traffic to a single route?

 

[imarchant]

This thread and Dr. Wu's "Terminal List" Threads have really got me thinking a lot on these subjects. I was thinking, what about many years ago when there were no trails built. Were there arguments and discussions about the pros and cons of creating trails to the peaks? Are the peaks any the worse for the fact that there are now trails? My opionion is yes, to some degree, but I think that it is a good thing that people are able to get out and enjoy them.

I realize and respect the reverence for pristine wilderness. I also enjoy the feelings of being in a place very few others have been. That.s the catch 22 of the situation, as more people wish to enjoy such an experience they begin to degrade the very experience by doing so. Once this cycle starts there is resentment by those who wish to have the area pristine. How many people is this experience meant for? Who has the right to such and experience? It is impossible to have a answer to such a problem.

 

[mavs00]

Oh no, I feel myself getting sucked back in

I just wanted to voice my concerns as I've been thinking about this stuff for a long while now. I meant not to be preachy, although I acknowledge that my viewpoint can't help but be somewhat selfish and johnny-come-lately. I think it's perfectly okay to look at ourselves with deep criticism and then think about if and how things could be different.

//////// ------------

You are very right and I think you voice perfectly what many of us feel inside. I re-read through this thread in it's entirety and I saw many examples of people saying, in essence, "I'm very careful in submitting public trip reports", which when you wipe that all away, simply means "HEY, I got some real concerns here." and "perhaps by being careful I've done my part, and can feel better baggin the next one" Is that enough to ease our personal concerns? Not if I read the rest of this thread correctly, it isn't.

I think that my earlier post screamed (and came) from a passionate place inside of me that really is afraid that my own actions (climbing), which I refuse to stop doing, is contributing to some of the very conditions I fear occurring on these same peaks. Talk about confliction. In my case, I thump my chest and say, "but I make it right, because have a website that "say's" your a bad boy/girl if you knock a few trees downs at the summit...". Is that enough? I don't know, I really don't

I sense alot of standing around and looking about for answers elsewhere, You know, the real answers to issues we ALL KNOW are there (or are around the corner). In my case, you all just witnessed me literally attempt to absolve myself of responsibility with a feeble - "Hey, If only climbed a mere 70, I can't possibly have the answers to these weighty issues, I better defer to the LEGENDS on this one, they'll have the answers for sure.". I mean no disrespect there, and they surely have an insight probably greater than many of us, but I just realized, they likely don't have the answers either.

In the end, the answers will collectively come from within US, ALL of us.......... and if there is one thing we can all take from this. Unless your like my mother, who hasn't set foot in the woods a day in her life, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, and you can only HOPE and PRAY that you can be part of the solution. These are MY thoughts on this matter, and mine alone, but I thank those of you that helped me see them clearer.

In the last 5 years on here, I'm not sure I've seen a more important topic or issues that blended both LEGEND and neophyte hikers together so nicely and by discussing it so candidly together, perhaps we've begon the process.

If we keep digging, we might even find an answer or two

------------ ////////

//////// ----This could all be a hippie flashback rant too ------- ////////

 

[Peakbagr]

What attracts me to the ADK HH is their remoteness, lack of human impact, no trails, and surprises at every turn. High rock cliffs standing right on the route you intended, acres of ferns in the middle of a sea of blowdown, moose tracks and dropping, and the beat-to-the-bone sense of accomplishment most days when we get back to the truck.

I don't think these sorts of discussions have taken place much in the past. Primarily as there was no medium to do this when the ADK high peaks were first being ascended. And because there wasn't the huge population then that had the time, money, Northway, or inclination. The fact that lists are being disseminated, and discussions like this taking place, means the time for these peaks to remain in their current state is limited.
If even 1% of the newcomers following this thread get inspired to climb them, the increase in traffic from them and their associates will be immense. There is a buzz of adventure in climbing these that the 46 no longer holds for me. But the irony is that as we speak about stewardship of the "little 54", we are attracting more attention to them.
John Swanson hit it right on the head. The "best" routes are the best routes. 9/10 experienced bushwackers will select the same way into and up these if starting from a similar direction.

 

[mavs00]

There is a buzz of adventure in climbing these that the 46 no longer holds for me. But the irony is that as we speak about stewardship of the "little 54", we are attracting more attention to them.
John Swanson hit it right on the head. The "best" routes are the best routes. 9/10 experienced bushwackers will select the same way into and up these if starting from a similar direction.

If we continue to do nothing but talk............ yeah, you might be right........ It might help, but the additinal attention we've created could also create "SHAME" on all our parts too. If we cohese (is that a word), even in our thoughts and come up with something, anything, hell even a greater awareness to the sensitivities involved is a start.

Will some herd paths possibly start, or signs/cannisters ever be accepted as a way not to trash vast summit areas. Remember Stewart?????? .............. we crashed over 3 bumps, 2-3 friggin times only to decide that bump #2 was at least 5-6 feet higher than 1-2 two, never mind we killed 2-3 trees (at least) in the process. In a case like that (sorry eric) a little red tap might of saved a conifier of two...... Remember "valuable sacrifice".

Think forest fires, you might have to cut down a line of trees to save a whole forest .

Just more thoughts, not answers, just thoughts

 

[Raymond]

I think everyone needs to take a stress tab and relax.

Susan and I were in the Catskills a couple weeks ago, hiking on trails. We encountered ten other hikers during our five hikes, nine of them on Hunter Mountain. So that was just one other person over 32 miles of trail.

We were the first people in ten days to sign in to the canister register on Big Indian, and the last person to sign in was someone who had been there three times already that month.

If hikers on popular mountains with trails are practically nonexistent, I doubt there are many bushwhacking to trailless ones. (If just one person bushwhacking to trailless ones is too many for you*, then I don't know how to assuage you. You'll just have to stay home yourself, I guess, rather than contribute to the degradation of everyone else's experience.**)

* This is just a general, nonspecific "you;" nobody in particular.

** I'm being facetious here.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Once virginity is lost

One thing to remember is how powerful the net is. And how much ONE PERSON can do. I'm starting to realize the power of the net, when I see that google has stuff on ME, going back 21 years. Almost half my life on google!

Things get archived and indexed and are searchable. Copies are made as well. All it takes, is one person, posting the GPS waypoints to a route. IT is there! For everyone! There can be 10,000 people keeping quiet about something, but that one person can open it up. Given time, it will become a popular route. Not because it is good, but because it is easy.

Remember that.

And Eric. When you say the responsibility of making a mess is the person doing it, I'm not really sure you've hit on the problem. Look at the ADK 46 untrailled peaks. Look what has happened to them. It isn't the litter. It isn't the flagging. Their wilderness has been taken away.

If one person a year climbs a peak, that peak might be considered wild. If 100 a day climb it, it isn't. Where is does the white turn to gray turn to black?

What drives a person to want to share his hiking experience with another? We don't necessarily do this with other things we enjoy.