Advice on the trail...no thanks!

[MadRiver]

Here is a slightly different take on the subject. This past Friday I and two friends decided to spend the night at Crag Camp. During the preparation and packing phase I repeatedly suggested that Pauline (her first winter overnight) switch her 25 degree synthetic bag with my wife’s 0 degree down back. Each time she politely declined.

Come Friday morning, rather than go up Lowe’s Path to Gray Knob and then over to Crag, we decided to go up Air Line to Short Line to Randolph to Hincks for a change of pace. In retrospect, it was a bad decision that I will not go into at the moment. Just suffice it to say it was not pretty.

After finally arriving at Crag, we all changed out of our wet clothes and into dry clothing as we attempted to warm up. Pauline got into her bag with a space blanket and as much as she tried, she couldn’t warm up. We did the usual heating of water bottles and began cooking dinner. After about an hour with Pauline still miserable, I had her get into my bag and gave her my bomber hat to keep warm, since her wool hat was frozen from the hike to the camp.

We all sat at the table looking at the beautiful ravine while eating dinner. John and I were both warm with what clothing we were wearing, while Pauline was toasty warm in my bag and hat. Come bed time, I had a decision to make. Do I take back my bag and relegate her to an uncomfortable and cold night, or do I give up my bag and use hers?

Pauline has been a friend for 18 years and as much as she had the opportunity to switch bags before the trip, I couldn’t in all good conscience take back my bag. I therefore took her bag and she mine and we both had a comfortable night.

On the hike out the next morning, we descended Lowe’s Path rather than repeat our mistake of the previous morning and Pauline mentioned to everyone she encountered that they needed at least a 0 bag, which I couldn’t help but chuckle over.

 

[dr_wu002]

It's a top-secret government-issued symbol. If I told you, I'd have to kill you. Or you can PM me and I'll tell

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Ha HA! Why Bother!?

 

[Puck]

Advice. try not to give it when it is unsolicited. If I am leading a group then that is a different story. Usually I don't like to give it and reach down deep to fight the urge.

If somebody asks me for advice I tell myself..."They are only looking for somebody to agree with them so they have an accomplice."

 

[jade]

Yesterday afternoon, driving home from the city, a fellow traveller heading in the opposite direction flashed his/her brights on and off. I waved 'thank you'........sure enough, parked out of site on the side of the road was a police cruiser equipped with a radar gun. I continued on, flashing my lights to on coming traffic. Unsolicited advice? Perhaps...........but I was grateful.......
.......Jade

Maddy.....How's your little Burnese (?) baby? Perhaps Carmen and I can join you this summer for a hike.......

 

[Neil]

I remember when my wife and I were going up Gothics via the Saddleback col. The cables had been removed and a woman was going very slowly ahead of us. She mentioned that she was afraid and that her partners had gone on ahead. It helped her a great deal just having my wife and I to talk to and we stayed with her and sort of coached her along. We heartily disapproved of the way she had been left behind and said so to each other (in French). At the top of the steep section her partners were waiting. It turned out she had insisted that they go ahead and wait for her further up the mountain and they were just starting back down to see if she needed any help.
I’m glad we didn’t offer up any unsolicited “advice” or opinions without knowing the whole story.
We ended up spending a lot of enjoyable time with these very nice folks on the summit and later on in the day when we caught up to them again on Upper Wolf Jaws.

 

[lamerunner]

If you hike fasterthan the other guy, you get much less unsolicited advice!

 

[Orsonab]

As the licence plate says...

Two thoughts:
1) Unsolicited advice boldly stated usually results in the "advisee" doing exactly what the "advisor" has told them NOT to do ("I'll prove that Gore-tex clad busybody wrong by climbing King's Ravine with nothing but my dance shoes and tube of chapstick!")
BUT
2) Subtle advice when warranted by dangerous conditions, etc. such as "Hi! Great trail, isn't it? Gosh, but look - the sky bruises and methinks Zeus's thunderstrikes shall smite the above treeline summit very soon - good luck on that ascent!" makes me feel better and can plant a seed of healthy doubt in the mind of the recipient.

"Live free or die" can sometimes mean "live free AND die" but choosing which one comes with being a grown-up.

 

[RGF1]

Catskillclimber, I hear you. I always hike solo, and stay well away from people out there because chances are they will say something annoying. I find older folks pleasant to chat with, but younger, cool-looking people I avoid.
I always rest near a summit, but not on it. Once I was resting and a cool party came along and I heard "This is lame. The Rockies have better views from the trailheads. The Perrinies and Alps are so much better." blah, blah, blah.
Yes, I know they're too stupid to enjoy the beauty of these mountains, etc., but I'd rather not hear it in the first place. I'd rather hear a grouse drumming or an underground brook gurgling, or a thrush singing...

I believe it is this judgmental attitude that Catskillclimber was talking about. Forestnome has decided that young people are all the same and every one on the trail is going to annoy him.. Perhaps Forestnome should hike in the Brooks Range, there are not any people there to bother you just lots of hungery grizzlies . We are talking about the Northeast and if you hike in the Whites of course you are going to encounter people. I have seen plenty of young people having a great time and not doing something foolish . I do not expect to be alone hiking in the Whites I enjoying meeting people. I do not know where people encounter all there arrogant types most of the people I meet hiking seem to be friendly and decent enough. I can think of maybe 2 times I was annoyed by another hiker who thought they where the trail police.
Also calling people stupid just because they do not share your feelings about a area is unfair and not much different than the people giving out unsolicited advice. and maybe you do not even know them Instead of calling them stupid why not head out west and see what it is for yourself The Rockies really are spectaular espdically if you are like myself a view junkie . . I have not heard those comments. I hear people saying that they are different .

Two thoughts:
1) Unsolicited advice boldly stated usually results in the "advisee" doing exactly what the "advisor" has told them NOT to do ("I'll prove that Gore-tex clad busybody wrong by climbing King's Ravine with nothing but my dance shoes and tube of chapstick!")
BUT
2) Subtle advice when warranted by dangerous conditions, etc. such as "Hi! Great trail, isn't it? Gosh, but look - the sky bruises and methinks Zeus's thunderstrikes shall smite the above treeline summit very soon - good luck on that ascent!" makes me feel better and can plant a seed of healthy doubt in the mind of the recipient.

"Live free or die" can sometimes mean "live free AND die" but choosing which one comes with being a grown-up.

What you say is probably more true than you know.
Yes making choices comes with being a adult.
I do wonder if any of the advice givers would like it if some one accosted them and started giving out unwanted or possibly un needed advice or a scolding .

 

[Grumpy]

A very personal perspective . . .

There is a real difference between advice giving directed at friends, relatives, close associates, etc., and that directed at strangers.

Being short, fat and gray-haired, I draw “askance” looks and occasional remarks from fitter-than-thou types I meet along hiking trails. It is made quite clear, by some, that they believe my unfit condition disqualifies me from going out there and tackling something I love to do. Luckly, this doesn’t happen too often. Most hikers seem to mind their own business pretty well.

I’ve never been to charm school, but have heard about the basic lessons.

So, if someone I meet on the trail seems to have a genuine and respectful concern for my well-being, and is polite about it, I politely engage them in conversation and reassure them that I am doing OK and say a cordial “thank you.”

However, if someone decides to lecture me on the evils of being out of shape (or ill-equipped, or whatever) and the inconvenience I might cause some SAR folks (or others) or wishes to otherwise critique my situation without being asked, I will attempt to warn them off because I regard that as stepping into the realm of being disrespectful. If my hints go unheeded, the jerk(s) get(s) the treatment given an insistent telemarketer: the conversation ends straightaway. In departing from such an encounter I am likely to say (most cheerfully), “y’all have a nice day, too,” which is charm school code for “bugger off” or an even coarser equivalent.

All that aside, being a people watcher I do quietly size up other folks on the trail. I always greet fellow hikers, and usually enjoy conversing with them. Swapping notes on where we’ve been and where we’re bound for, and our plans, and the like is great entertainment. Sometimes these friendly little chats yield opportunities to be politely and respectfully helpful, and sometimes they turn up some some advice and ideas I can use. Good encounters like these are by far the norm in my hiking life.

G.

 

[Mr. X]

...Personally... if I saw someone I felt could use a few words of wisdom and I didn't offer it... then I hear down the road that they were killed from whatever it was I thought of commenting on.. I would feel guilty.

As the king, I think that you should use your scepter and decree that person "out of order"!

 

[Remix]

The only problem I have had with advice is from from those who blur the line between backcountry rules and leave no trace camping ethics with regard to where one can put up a tent and whether one can have a fire.


No one has ever lectured me about anything else (guess I'm lucky), but if the information proves contrary to my experience, I would be ready to say, "Thanks, my life, my hike" and move on.

 

[SherpaKroto]

Grumpy: I can't tell you how many times I've been asked "Are you OK?" on the trail. I'm of your body type and to some, that disqualifies me from hiking. Won't stop me from going out though, and fortunately I'm too busy taking in the views to spend much time hiking around some of those folks.

 

[JohnL]

I always find this subject (unsolicited advice) entertaining and an interesting social commentary every time it surfaces on the BB. Notwithstanding the off topic posts, here are some Laws I learned while back there in Seminary School:

Fudd’s First Law of Counsel: It is acceptable to give unsolicited advice but not to receive it.
Fudd’s Clairvoyant Principle: You have to know in advance the tone of delivery with which the listener wants to hear the unwanted unsolicited advice.
The Chutzpah Addendum: You have to assume that you know more about what the person is doing than they do.
The Runaway Train of Guilt Theorum: Guilt will enter the scene to encourage and justify the dissemination of unwanted advice.
They aren’t dots; they’re umlauts. (Oops, sorry, off topic.)
The Law of the Perversity of Judgment: It is very hard to correlate good judgment to good gear in the very short time between first sighting and the dissemination of the unwanted advice.
The Perversity Corollary: If you are giving unwanted advice, you are exhibiting poor judgment.
Finagle’s Fourth Law: No matter what your good intentions are, someone is always eager to misinterpret it.

JohnL

 

[Puck]

Also calling people stupid just because they do not share your feelings about a area is unfair and not much different than the people giving out unsolicited advice. and maybe you do not even know them Instead of calling them stupid why not head out west and see what it is for yourself The Rockies really are spectaular espdically if you are like myself a view junkie . . I have not heard those comments. I hear people saying that they are different .

sorry, I have to agree with Forestnome on this one, they are stupid. "Be here now." one can look at a view and and compare it to something much better. or they can experience the view on its own merits and "be here now" They can get married then compare thier spouse with people they dated in the past. the list can go on. If thier past experiences are so great why did they leave them? I have had great hikes out west, have alsohad a great hike in Nebraska. It is a fool who can't see the beauty around him on its own merits.

 

[lamerunner]

Nebraska???

 

[Puck]

Nebraska???

From sound of the sarcasim in your post you must be an Oklahoma U. Sooner snob and think that the hiking and views in Oklahoma are superior to those in Nebraska and Kansas.

 

[Skyclimber]

Well I have to agree that Cotton Kills and should not be worn on the trails. When the jeans and cotton shirt gets wet it stays wet. (poly pro is designed to wick the sweat and wetness away from your body) I'm sure everyone has lifted a pair of blue jeans out of the washing machine. They are heavy and takes quite awhile to dry in the dryer. Well this is an example of what jeans being wet on the trail are close to your body. Hyperthermia doesn't only occur in the Winter but any season of the year.
I never knew the difference when I started hiking either, blue jeans, cotton and sneakers. But we live and learn. Comments on what a person wears is only out of concern and well being. We do not learn unless we are taught.
One Summer back in 1993, on top of Marcy, we were asked by a Forest Ranger to empty our packs and show the contents. He was concerned of what we had in there in case the weather turned ugly and also water and food supplies. Was I offended? No! He was just looking out for the safety of us on the trail.
Also around 1993 in the middle of Summer climbing the Sewards. We came upon a young boy and his father in the col between Seward and Donaldson. The man was sprauled out on the trail as he was suffering from dehydration. Giving him gatorade to help hydrate him again, so they could make it out safely.
When you play Golf, do you use a Tennis Ball or a Golf Ball?
My point is that if you are to enter the woods, be prepared in doing so.

"Mountains don't kill people, it's the ill-prepared hiker in the Mountains, that kills people."

 

[Rik]

When you play Golf, do you use a Tennis Ball or a Golf Ball?

I use a tennis ball but all these people dressed in funny pants and shoes (with built in crampons!) keep coming up to me and telling me I don't belong out there. At that point I usually just throw down my hydration pack and trekking poles and tell them to "golf their own golf".

Seriously I think it is more about how things are said than anything else. I can still remember being "lectured" by Adirondack legend Pete Fish on my outfit for a fall hike when I was first starting out. He was kind but concerned and this conversation has stuck with me for many years. I don't think it is too hard to figure out who is being helpful and who is being a "snob". Having a conversation and asking thought provoking questions always seemed like the most effective way for me to educate without offending.

 

[lamerunner]

Puck, actually I have never been to OK. I was in Nebraska once and I was not impressed. ..but you are correct that each alpine view is unique.

I have neither given nor received much unsolicited trail advice; mostly I greet other hikers and we exchange info re trail conditions etc if appropriate. I am pretty fit and I hike pretty fast, but I suppose if asked to empty my pack some one would find fault with something. Most of the obviously unprepared hikers I have seen have been close enough to civilization that I kept my mouth shut .

I have seen far more dangerous, stupid behavior at alpine ski areas than on hiking trails, and in extreme cases, I have spoken up . The snowbboarder who cleaned out my son got an earful, for example.

I think you sort of have to take it case by case . I was not offended when a US forest Service person asked where I was headed while snowshoeing on the Great Gulf Trail during a snow storm; he may just have been making conversation, or he may have been making a mental note in case some one went missing. Had he criticized my clothing or equipment, however, when from my perspective I was merely taking an afternoon walk, I probably would not have liked it.

Most folks on the trial are pretty well-intentioned, but there is plenty of opportunity for misjudgment and misunderstanding, and some folks are ill-prepared , some to the point of stupidity. Most of them will do ok anyway.

 

[dug]

Wait...I came into this late. Cotton gets wet and stays wet? Polypro wicks? Is this new? Where have I heard this before?

Thankfully, not long after synthetic materials were discovered, they were applied to mountain gear and climbers FINALLY conquered the Mighty Whites and the Imposing DAX. Otherwise, climbing in only wool and cotton, those peaks would obviously be unclimbed forever because, after all, cotton kills.