Advice on the trail...no thanks!

[Skyclimber]

Wait...I came into this late. Cotton gets wet and stays wet? Polypro wicks? Is this new? Where have I heard this before?
Otherwise, climbing in only wool and cotton, those peaks would obviously be unclimbed forever because, after all, cotton kills.

But Wool is just as good as poly-pro and gortex! It's warmer too.

 

[Artex]

But Wool is just as good as poly-pro and gortex! It's warmer too.

I have to concur (at least in part), based soley on a recent experiment. I used my heavy wool guide shirt as a middle layer during a trip a few weeks ago. It worked great. I don't think I'd want it as an outer layer in wet conditions though.

 

[Skyclimber]

I have to concur (at least in part), based soley on a recent experiment. I used my heavy wool guide shirt as a middle layer during a trip a few weeks ago. It worked great. I don't think I'd want it as an outer layer in wet conditions though.

You'd be surprised how well Wool works as an outer layer in wet conditions. I put it through the test in the Winter 1996 in
10 degree Weather. I fell through the ice on Uphill Brook. Submerging my pants completely in water. Even after saturated , I still managed to stay dry and warm and walked the 8 1/2 miles back to the Loj.

 

[Greg L]

Giving unsolicited advice could interfere with natural selection.

 

[Jaytrek57]

Just some random thoughts on this topic.

All advice, unless asked for, is unsolicited.

"Wet" cotton...in cold temperatures...seriously could effect your life expectancy. I for one have been known to hike in cotton (shirts) in different climates and seasons.

IMHO, there is a difference between a ranger asking pointed, direct or indirect questions, than strangers doing the same.

I agree with everyone that it is the manner in which "advice" is given. I generally agree that people will size one up as sincere or condensending right away.

This may produce some flame, but I truly believe that more "veteran" people get into trouble in the outdoors than the "newbies". "Newbies" often say turn around, but "veterans" don't often listen to that "advice".

 

[forestgnome]

Puck, thanks for the back-up!

You wouldn't think that considering a person to be stupid for saying "this is lame" while hiking the Presidential Ridge would be controversial, but then again, I hike solo for a reason.

Maybe "lame" is a new pop-culture term for beautiful.

 

[jbreen]

something I learned from 18 yrs of marriage

1 -- Never give advice unless asked. Unless the outcome will be catastrophic, someone learning from their own mistakes will remember them better than anything you can say (and give them a good war story too).

2. -- When you cannot abide by #1 and you burst out an explosion of advice, only comment on what you can help with. Pointing out what's wrong and not offering to correct it it just plain obnoxious.
Exmple:
Q: "Does this Carrhart canvas jacket make me look fat?"
A: "It does not flattter your figure as nicely as your blue gore-tex shell."

Jim

 

[afka_bob]

Giving unsolicited advice could interfere with natural selection.

...or cause a different natural selection than that implied.

 

[rtrimarc]

advice

i agree that it can be irritating to be given advice not asked for. But most times, i believe the giver has the best interests of the receiver at heart. Not always, perhaps, but in general. My first HP was Giant in early November. Camped below RB Falls and decided to hike up. I was wearing jeans, a cotton sweatshirt and light Nike hikers. And we had not nearly enough water. We summited with no problems and there were two gentlemen on the summit in full Gore-Tex, crampons, ice axes - the works. they kind of looked at us funny - like we were newbies. Which was appropriate. We spoke briefly and they were surprised we had made it up. Their advice about the changeable weather conditions and being prepared was helpful at that time.

But one does not always know the situation, goals, or needs of another. FOr a few years there was an annual snowshoe race up Blue Mt. Started at the trailhead near the museum. Despite the -3 degree starting temp, most racers were in running tights or similar with lightweight shells glove liners only etc - real warm weather gear. Halfway up, there was a group hiking in expedition gear. Which was appropriate for their event, but not mine. Advice from them regarding attire would have been innapropriate at that time - we had very different needs and goals.

So while some comments may be appreciated, in fact needed, the timing is very important. Just be careful when giving advice.

 

[rtrimarc]

advice

i agree that it can be irritating to be given advice not asked for. But most times, i believe the giver has the best interests of the receiver at heart. Not always, perhaps, but in general. My first HP was Giant in early November. Camped below RB Falls and decided to hike up. I was wearing jeans, a cotton sweatshirt and light Nike hikers. And we had not nearly enough water. We summited with no problems and there were two gentlemen on the summit in full Gore-Tex, crampons, ice axes - the works. they kind of looked at us funny - like we were newbies. Which was appropriate. We spoke briefly and they were surprised we had made it up. Their advice about the changeable weather conditions and being prepared was helpful at that time.

But one does not always know the situation, goals, or needs of another. For a few years there was an annual snowshoe race up Blue Mt. Started at the trailhead near the museum. Despite the -3 degree starting temp, most racers were in running tights or similar with lightweight shells glove liners only etc - real warm weather gear. Halfway up, there was a group hiking in expedition gear. Which was appropriate for their event, but not mine. Advice from them regarding attire would have been innapropriate at that time - we had very different needs and goals.

So while some comments may be appreciated, in fact needed, the timing is very important. Just be careful when giving advice.

 

[Maddy]

Wait...I came into this late. Cotton gets wet and stays wet? Polypro wicks? Is this new? Where have I heard this before?

Thankfully, not long after synthetic materials were discovered, they were applied to mountain gear and climbers FINALLY conquered the Mighty Whites and the Imposing DAX. Otherwise, climbing in only wool and cotton, those peaks would obviously be unclimbed forever because, after all, cotton kills.

Not all that many years ago some folks died of infections that are now treatable with antibiotics. There was also a certain element of the population who survived their infections.Today we save lots more.
I wonder if we could say the same about cotton vs polypro! I think polypro is just one more thing to help make you a little more likely to survive your adventure. However...you might be just fine wearing cotton. Same with seat belts.
My only negative experience with cotton was having my jeans frozen like boards on my legs in the middle of the night during the blizzard of "78". I made it home but I was a real popsicle!
OOP's! And once on Mansfield in the summer when it was sweltering all day but in the late pm the temps plummeted, big rain storm, and I was freezing cold! Not a whole lot in my pack either.
I know for a fact that if I should up to my winter expedition with Outward Bound all decked out in cotton, they would have brought me straight back to the airport!
"Experiential" learning! Nothing like it!!!

 

[Panama Jack]

well, take my advice.......

I wouldnt dare offer any....

 

[Ned Kipperson]

Pete Fish is retired. He also was getting paid to be a pain in the butt. That's why everyone needs to carry a hiking rap sheet. That way if some pompous peakbagger evaluates your performance hiking up Mt. Jo you can whip out your log and show that person. "Well, as you can see I'm a last week in each month 46'r with a Class C hiking license which allows me to carry a 7000 cubic inch pack up a 60 degree slope. Good day."
It's been awhile.

 

[jjmcgo]

Illegal search

Skyclimber2971w wrote about being asked to empty the contents of his pack by a ranger on Marcy. The Ranger apparently wanted to evaluate the quality of equipment and its suitability for the existing situation.
Jaytrek wrote: IMHO, there is a difference between a ranger asking pointed, direct or indirect questions, than strangers doing the same.
I think the stranger is the less intrusive person and of course while they may be offending your sensitivities, they are not violating your rights.
Rangers are law-enforcement officers and have no right, absent probable cause to believe you are commiting a crime, to order a search of your property.
Does anyone know if there are laws and/or regulations that permit such spur-of-the-moment shakedowns?

 

[Rik]

Rangers are law-enforcement officers and have no right, absent probable cause to believe you are commiting a crime, to order a search of your property.
Does anyone know if there are laws and/or regulations that permit such spur-of-the-moment shakedowns?

Seems to me anybody can ask someone to empty their pack. I guess the question would be what recourse do they have if you refuse?

 

[Skyclimber]

Skyclimber2971w wrote about being asked to empty the contents of his pack by a ranger on Marcy. The Ranger apparently wanted to evaluate the quality of equipment and its suitability for the existing situation.

Correction HER Pack. We were asked to empty our packs in the respect the Ranger wanted to see the food, water and clothes contents. We were ready to descend over the backside of Marcy to Skylight and Gray with our two young daughters at the time. It was a hot day when we did this and he wanted to make sure there was plenty of water with us as well as food. He was looking for prepareness in the woods. Not sure what he would had done, had we not of had the "proper" contents. I was not offended as he was looking out for our safety. I did find it rather "odd" though. This was the first and only time this happened to us in 12 years of climbing.

 

[Puck]

Rangers are law-enforcement officers and have no right, absent probable cause to believe you are commiting a crime, to order a search of your property.
Does anyone know if there are laws and/or regulations that permit such spur-of-the-moment shakedowns?

I am not a lawyer. Rangers are not searching for evidence in relation to a crime. Thier search maybe equivelent to a bag check for bottles when going into a stadium. You consent to it when you got your ticket. Perhaps some of areas, use implies consnent for these shakedowns. I am only guessing on this and would love to hear a legal opinion.

 

[adirobdack46r]

I also don't know the legal aspect. Why do some of you make this such a big deal? Maybe they have the legal right maybe they don't. The way I look at it is that they are mostly just looking out for our safety. I would share my contents with a Ranger in a heart beat. I would think the only ones that might not are people who have something to hide. Why make a federal case out of it, what's the big deal?

 

[Adk_dib]

My only question is could they make you go back if they thought you were unprepaired? I dont like to take anymore than I have to. I did the 5 dixes with a fanny pack a couple water bottles, a water pump and some power bars. what if they thought It wasn't enough? would they have the right to make me go back? How do they know my fitness level.

 

[Rik]

Why make a federal case out of it, what's the big deal?

I don't see anyone doing this, just having a discussion is all. Much of this would be a judgement call as to what "prepared" entails. I tend to overpack but others go very light. Seems they have a right to do so. Should they be turned around because they are in running shoes? Just wondering what a ranger would do if he/she found what they considered inadequate gear? And then if told to return to the trailhead could I respectfully refuse and go on at my own risk? I'm sure this would leave you liable for S&R costs should you need rescue in states where you can be charged but can they march you out? Do they have authority to detain even if a crime has not been committed?