Alpine Ski Areas in MA for a novice

[DougPaul]

It'll probably be straight to the bunny slope for me to unlearn alpine technique and to learn to turn skinny skis.

Don't forget everything: snowplow and parallel (both stem christie and full christie) turns are very useful on free-heel gear. We also do hockey stops.

In fact, people who do both have observed that the free-heel experience improves their alpine technique.

Doug

 

[Mark_151]

Marshall --

It's not a "traditional" backcountry ski, but the folks from Teleboards were at Wa last night doing a demo, and I tried this ski

It's actually an alpine camber ski with a waxless pattern that looks suspiciously like Karhu's fishscales. Despite the good luck more proficient people than me are having, I find my Fischer Outtabounds to be difficult to turn and not good at gliding. I demo'd the Apinas and almost bought them on the spot. In fact, I did buy this ski at their last demo, which has the same dimensions. I intend to use it with skins for backcountry use, although I bought it as my primary lift-served ski, because I fitted it with Cobra bindings, which are more active than my G3's. My old Rossignols with G3's will be the primary rock/backcountry rig. The Alpina above kicked and climbed excellent and glided a heck of a lot better than my Outtabounds. I found out that doing a classical kick and glide on heavy gear back and fourth in front of the lifts at WA will get you attention! Pretty good for a single camber ski. And, they carved tele turns exceedingly easily. I've just gotten the ability to carve versus skid, BTW, within the last 2 weeks. I'd give these skis a look. Teleboards is doing demos at WA every Thursday evening until the end of the season. They have demo boots as well, so you don't need your own gear to try tele skiing.

Mark

 

[Pat T]

Tele demo days?

Is there a tele demo day coming up at Wachusett? I watched three people yesterday on Ralph's Run. Looked like they were having fun.

Pat T

 

[MarshallM]

DougPaul: Thanks for mentioning the similarities between alpine and BC skiing. If its possible to do hockey stops using the Excursions with skinny skis (without advanced skills) in other than perfect conditions, that will exceed my wildest expectations.

Mark: Thanks for the info about the Teleboards' demos on Thursday evenings. Sure sounds like you are building yourself a nice collection of skis. Your comment on the Fischer Outtabounds is a little discouraging though, as I've been researching them and was assuming that they would be an excellent all-around ski that would turn without too much difficulty.

For my first BC ski, I'm putting a priority on a ski that excels at kick and glide (probably double camber) that would be ideal for a Pemi tour with a full pack/sled. If I can get some turns out them with the Excursion boots, that'll be an added bonus.

On the Wachusett bunny slope, it may not be pretty and I suspect that any turns will be solidly in the "skid" category!

Marshall

 

[Mark_151]

I have the Excursions and used them exclusivly for 2 months at Wachusett with my Rossignol/G3 setup while I was learning tele. They're actually quite good and I had no trouble with them on the blues, as long as they were groomed. Any bumps or irregularities and I tended to go into the back seat. A real skier would be able to do anything with them I'm sure. Now, I have the Garmont Syner-G's, and in retrospect, I'd buy just them and forget the Excursions. The Syner-G is very comfortable and lightweight enough for me to tour in. I think it's actually more comfortable than my Excursions.

Also, the Outtabounds comments are just my personal feeling, as a novice. Many other people are commenting on how great they are, so I have to assume I don't have the technique to turn them properly yet. Also, mine are waxless. I wish I'd gotten the waxable, and they are undoubtedly much better at gliding than mine, which are with the Excursions and Voile bindings more like snowshoes.

Dave Metsky has the exact same setup as mine, except his are waxless. Of course, he could make a set of 2x4's turn, but perhaps he'll pop in with his observations.

 

[Tramper Al]

Outtabounds

Also, the Outtabounds comments are just my personal feeling, as a novice. Many other people are commenting on how great they are, so I have to assume I don't have the technique to turn them properly yet. Also, mine are waxless. I wish I'd gotten the waxable, and they are undoubtedly much better at gliding than mine, which are with the Excursions and Voile bindings more like snowshoes.

I'll just toss in my Outtabounds Crown experience at the kick/glide end. I used mine (with Excursions and 3-pin Voile) on a Catamount Trail group tour this week. The section had some ups and downs, but a lot of quite level kick and glide. I kept pace with the group, mainly comprised of more experienced skiers on lighter gear, just fine. I ended up faster than most, actually. On my feet, the Outtabounds do everything fairly well, and are best at nothing except versatility. Since these same skis can take me from touring on the flat up to novice tele clinic and glade turns in the backcountry, they have been excellent broad spectrum skis for me.

 

[MichaelJ]

PS -- MichaelJ was making some pretty good turns!

Bwahaha! Mark didn't see my wipeout on Conifer. A huge implosion, slammed myself into the snow, ski went flying ... right in front of an instructor and student.

I was trying to move up from 150cm rentals to my own 170's (Atomic Beta V) and had no problems on Sundowner, Ralph's Run, and even Hitchcock to Frannie's Folly. My confidence was up and I was feeling great with the better level of control from the longer skis. Until now I'd just been using the shorter skis, turning more with my hips than with the skis, and doing a lot of sliding and scraping. Now I was actually letting the skis do some of the work and not killing my legs so much.

But then we went to the summit to come down Conifer, and it had a lot of loose stuff - not slush, but well-frozen granular, piled like powder, and I either couldn't make the skis turn or would catch an edge and turn wicked sharp. Ouch. Ow.

Tramper - I love my Outbound Crowns as well, though it's always amusing how people react to them, and my Garmont Excursions, when I use them at Windblown.

 

[DougPaul]

DougPaul: Thanks for mentioning the similarities between alpine and BC skiing. If its possible to do hockey stops using the Excursions with skinny skis (without advanced skills) in other than perfect conditions, that will exceed my wildest expectations.

Hockey stops are just overly skidded parallel turns. Not that hard on piste. Of course, there is also the jumped hockey stop...

For my first BC ski, I'm putting a priority on a ski that excels at kick and glide (probably double camber) that would be ideal for a Pemi tour with a full pack/sled. If I can get some turns out them with the Excursion boots, that'll be an added bonus.

You might want to consider a camber-and-a-half ski (or soft double camber) for BC use. Full double camber works best on a smooth hard-surface set track. In the BC the snow may be soft and the track is likely to be uneven. Under these conditions it is best to use a single wax on the entire ski. This makes second camber less than useless--it makes it harder to turn the ski. I frequenly use a single-camber light Tele ski (with Asolo Snowfield 3-pin leather boots) for BC--a little squirrely in the track, but very nice out of track and on the downhill. Kick and glide is fine (due to the wax) although the wax may wear off a little faster than on my camber-and-a-half skis.

I have both waxed and no-wax BC skis. I only use the no-wax when the snow is warm and wet (ie red wax to klister conditions). If the snow is good (colder and drier), wax wins--no contest--both better kick and better glide. A waxed ski is also tunable as needed--sticky one day and slippery the next.

Both (full) skins and kicker skins can be useful in the BC. Full skins are good for the steeper climbs and kicker skins are very good for using a waxable ski in warm and wet conditions.

I also suggest that 3-pin bindings are the best choice for this class of service, a good range available (from track weight to heavy duty tele) and a good range of boots available (also from track weight to heavy duty tele). Also strong, reliable and easy to maintain in the field.

A good bunch of info can be found at http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html

On the Wachusett bunny slope, it may not be pretty and I suspect that any turns will be solidly in the "skid" category!

Tele turns are usually a mixture of carve and skid. Parallel turns (on loose heel gear) can be skidded or carved. An important difference between fixed heel and loose heel skis is the binding location--fixed heel: center of the boot over the center of the ski; loose heel: pin line (just beyond the toe of the boot) over the center of the ski. To carve a parallel turn on loose heel gear, you need to put your weight on the ball of your foot (ie near the center of the ski). Weight further back will skid the ski. A single camber ski also helps...

BTW, no-wax skis at NE downhill areas tend to wear the pattern badly.

Doug

 

[rondak46]

snowboarding

I just wanted to suggest trying snowboarding. I do both. The movement, or "dance" (if you will), of snowboarding is something that I find much more relaxing than skiing. Take a lesson on a day when there is fresh fluffy stuff, it makes learning much more pleasant.

Having a choice of methods is really nice. When conditions are icy, I prefer skis, when powdery, I like to do some knuckledragging (snowboarding).

I love moguls (bumps) so I always try to don the skiis for a few runs. I have gained some skills on the bumps with my board, however; to the point that I hear people saying "what is he trying to do" when I attack the bumps on my board.

Snowboard boots are much more comfortable ( I have found). This is the reason I tried boarding in the first place.

I also found snowboarding to have a much shorter (if more painful) learning curve in terms of attaining proficiency and ability to explore harder terrain.

Does anyone have the Jeep owners apreciation days schedule?

Mike

 

[MichaelJ]

Does anyone have the Jeep owners apreciation days schedule?

I started skiing the winter after trading in my Jeep for an Outback. D'oh!!!!

 

[Mark_151]

Clarification on Wachusett Telemark Demo Dates

I just got an email from Martin Fey from Teleboards. They will be at Wachusett every other Thursday until "conditions start to deteriorate". Which means probably March 3rd and 17th. They have many skis and teleboards to demo, and supply tele boots as well. It's a great way of trying out telemark skiing cheap.

Mark

 

[sli74]

Thanks everyone for all the great advice,

I went to Attitash for my second time skiing (THANKS Carmel) and it was quite the experience. I found it to be MUCH more difficult than Black Mountain in Maine. Even the green runs had many steep sections and much of the "learning center" had what I will call "side hills" . . . meaning slopes running downhill sideways to the main slope, making the back and forth zigzag a slightly more harrowing experience. But I am getting better and if I am not broke by the end of the winter, I may just buy a pair of alpine skis (DID I SAY that?) . . . .

BTW, watching the tele skiers make their flawless turns was an amazing sight on the slopes.

sli74

 

[Gris]

Attitash, Cannon, Cranmore, Wildcat = NOT good beginner mts. By far the best beginner mountains in N. Conway area are:

1 - Bretton
2 - Black Mt. (Jackson, NH)

Try them. You'll see.

 

[sli74]

Agreed on Attitash, Gris . . .

I wasn't gonna publically admit this but just in case any other beginners are thinking about Attitash, I actually sat and cried during my first "run" (if you can call it that).

We accidentally got on the lift for the novice trails that go up further than the learning center. Once I got off the lift, we thought that since there were 3-4 green trails from that spot, maybe the initial steep section was not reperesentative of the rest of the green runs . . . WRONG !!

I had to take a "hot chocolate spiked with some hard alcohol" break with Carmel to get the courage to get back on the slopes.

Will give the other suggestions a try. Thanks!!!

sli74

 

[Tramper Al]

Ski Trails - really cheap

Hey sli,

I'm still not sure if you are freeheeling your Pavos or renting?

For a MA ski area, I was going to suggest Greylock. I walked down the Bellows Pipe this winter and it looks like a nice Blue Square trail.

Also, I had a sweet time making my well earned turns down through Honey Hollow on Camel's Hump Sunday. The Catamount is calling you.

I am thinking about skinning a ways in on the Marston Trail, to get some turns in on the way out. Are you game?

 

[sli74]

Hey Tramper,

I am doing the unthinkable and renting

I am hoping to learn some techniques downhill skiing that will help my very poor backcountry skiing skills. I tried unsuccessfully to learn to "snowplow" on my Pavos and my fear of heading downhill too fast has been hindering my backcountry skiing. But a couple of days on the slopes with rented alpine skis and I am already feeling very confident and getting better. I will be trying out my Pavos with my newly learned techniques this weekend.

Your trip report on the Catamount Trail is making me very jealous !!! I HAVE to get myself out there soon, our plans have fallen through too often this winter (mostly my fault) so hopefully we can get our act together soon

sli74

 

[DougPaul]

I am hoping to learn some techniques downhill skiing that will help my very poor backcountry skiing skills. I tried unsuccessfully to learn to "snowplow" on my Pavos and my fear of heading downhill too fast has been hindering my backcountry skiing. But a couple of days on the slopes with rented alpine skis and I am already feeling very confident and getting better. I will be trying out my Pavos with my newly learned techniques this weekend.

The basic snowplow works for both free heel and locked heel binding skis. In both cases, the skis are in the same position and the inside edges are weighted. The biggest differences between the Pavos in the backcountry and downhill skis (for snowplowing) are the boots and the snow.

Typical downhill boots are high, so that edge control is done from the knee. Backcountry boots range from high (eg plastic Tele boots) to low leather. Depending on the boot, the edge control is done from the ankle or knee.

Downhill areas have groomed snow which makes it relatively easy to move the skis into snowplow position. Backcountry snow ranges from "groomed" by other skiers snowplowing to rutted to icey to heavy powder in which it is difficult to maneuver the skis into snowplow condition. It can also offer untracked fresh powder.

There are a whole range of braking techniqes that one uses in the backcountry: half plows, ski drags (edge of the track and out-of-track), pole drags, ski out-of-track, turns (Tele and parallel), etc, and as a last resort sitz brake (controlled crash). I suppose one should add an uncontrolled crash to the list... .

Just start on the easier trails and get some experience dealing with snow and conditions. And then try some somewhat harder trails. Time at a cross-coutry area may help too. Don't forget that you can sidestep short steep spots or, if need be, walk short sections.

FWIW, I learned mostly in the backcountry plus a small amount of XC area time. Only recently did I pick up Tele, both lift served and backcountry. (Never downhilled.) Still learning.

Doug

 

[rondak46]

Shawnee and Gritty's

The bartender at the local 99's and I were talking about skiing and beer. I was trying my first "Gritty's" beer (Portland), and it was very good.

He told me that Shawnee Peak (ME) has $10 night skiing and 2$ Gritty's on Monday nights.

Night skiing has a feel all its own.

Mike

 

[sli74]

Thanks Rondak,

I will have to check that out . . . $10 is GREAT for skiing even if it is only a few hours !!!!

sli74

 

[MarshallM]

Got Skis

Bought a pair of the Fischer E99 (older more traditional touring version) at Hilton's Tent City, so I'm now available for some skiing.

Mark_151: Thanks for the comments on the Teleboards Demo dates. At some point, would probably like to demo some skis up at Wachusett with more sidecut (than my new ones) using my Garmont Excursion boots.

Tramper Al: Good feedback on the Outtabounds, as those are the all around BC ski that I had been looking at but hadn't found a good deal on the waxable version. I'm hoping that the E99s will be a good ski for some of the flatter Catamount Trail tours, so if you're looking for skiers to help in breaking trail and setting vehicle shuttles, by all means I'm game for that.

DougPaul: Appreciate your thoughts about double-camber versus single or single-and-a-half skis. I come from an alpine and later a nordic background, and quite honestly know very little about BC skiing other than what I've been soaking up on this forum and others in the last couple of years. Going to have to get used to the different binding mount position, to say nothing about 3-pin bindings, telemark turns, climbing skins and skiing with a heavier pack and/or pulling a sled.

Marshall