Another rescue of unprepared hikers on Mt Washington

[RoySwkr]

The key is " by commercial entity". USFS does not and never has said you can't ski in the WMNF, but if you want to sell access for dollars, any commercial entity has to pony up bucks for the right to collect money.

I have a slightly different memory of this.

What the FS was afraid of was people arriving at the top of Tucks Headwall and trying to ski down without having seen it from the bottom, this was thought to be too hazardous. They refused to sell concessioner permits for ski trains or helicopters. When the cog railway said they were a common carrier and required by law to sell tickets to anyone whether they had skis or not, the FS did in fact forbid skiing down Tucks from the cog. Some railway employees did it as a test and were issued citations. I think you can find this in old Appalachias.

I think the entire effort failed as the snow conditions were poor they year they tried it. Had it succeeded, I expect they would have gotte entangled with the FS if the tacitly allowed access to FS land.

As I recall they didn't get much ski business as it was a slow ride up and only one trail down, they actually got more sightseers who then rode back down. Obviously hiring a ski patrol and trail maintenace was expensive which is why they still give rides up and down but don't bother with calling it a ski train.

Since the cog owns their own right-of-way which predates the National Forest, the FS cannot forbid them from running trains but can only forbid people from using them to ski down the ravine. Hence I would call that banning skiing in a small portion of the NF.

 

[sierra]

Frostbite is certainly something to be respected.

Read up on it or take a winter hiking course--it is avoidable in all but the most serious situations. Severe frostbite can result in the loss of body parts (most commonly fingers, toes, tip of the nose, and parts of the external ear), disfigurement, and/or gangrene.

Such issues are one of the reasons that I advocate starting winter hiking by taking a course--any decent one should teach the student about the pitfalls rather than having the (non)student find out about them the hard way.

My introduction was in a winter school course using "Frostbite" by Bradford Washington, http://www.amazon.com/Frostbite-Bradford-Washburn/dp/B005APOB0U. A more recent book is "Hypothermia, Frostbite and Other Cold Injuries" by Gordon G. Giesbrecht and James A Wilkerson,
http://www.amazon.com/Hypothermia-F...1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1386963932&sr=1-1-fkmr0. I suggest that you read at least the second book or its equivalent.

Doug

Frostbite is a major concern for me. I carry heavy expedition mitts and 2 sets of lightweight gloves. I froze my hands once and it happened so quick it caught me off guard. I started the second pitch of an ice climb and all of the sudden, I couldnt feel my hands. I managed to finish the pitch by eyeing my ice axe leashes to keep them taught. I was lucky it was at Frankenstien cliffs as the truck was close by. Holding my hands over the defroster was not fun, it felt like someone was banging on my hands with a hammer. To this day my hands get cold quicker then most would.

 

[DougPaul]

Frostbite is a major concern for me. I carry heavy expedition mitts and 2 sets of lightweight gloves. I froze my hands once and it happened so quick it caught me off guard. I started the second pitch of an ice climb and all of the sudden, I couldnt feel my hands. I managed to finish the pitch by eyeing my ice axe leashes to keep them taught. I was lucky it was at Frankenstien cliffs as the truck was close by. Holding my hands over the defroster was not fun, it felt like someone was banging on my hands with a hammer. To this day my hands get cold quicker then most would.

You probably know this, but I'll say it for the benefit of those who may not:

Once frostbitten, the circulation will be compromised and the cold resistance of the affected flesh will be reduced.

A friend went ice climbing (IIRC also at Frankenstein) wearing single boots (Superguides). His toes didn't freeze, but they sustained nerve damage from the cold and were sensitive to cold afterwards. (I don't know the long-term outcome, but IIRC his toes were still sensitive the next winter.)

I'm lucky that my hands and feet are relatively warm as long as my central body is warm.

Doug

 

[John H Swanson]

For what it is worth, the cold weather nerve damage I sustained on the tips of a few fingers that led to them being more sensitive to the cold was "temporary" in that it went away after 5 to 10 years. I know people with face cold injury that report increased vulnerability many years later

 

[Mike P.]

Good boots are very important. IMO, if you cannot stand around in them for an hour or two, they are not warm enough. (The 3-season boots that some wear do not meet this test...) Anyone who uses boots that are marginal should carry booties as emergency gear. And needing to use chemical warmers to keep one's feet warm scares me. (See my post on frostbite...)

I wear winter double mountaineering boots and have stood in them for extended periods on windy belay ledges without difficulty. I can also wear them until I hit the sack while camping without difficulty.


Doug

This and what you pack in your survival gear is why it varies for people, the bigger/warmer your boots, the least likely you are to need some type of emergency footwear. There are many people who hike in the lighter shoes without issue as they are moving. The question is, how long would their feet stay warm if they could not move?

 

[Lawn Sale]

For what it is worth, the cold weather nerve damage I sustained on the tips of a few fingers that led to them being more sensitive to the cold was "temporary" in that it went away after 5 to 10 years. I know people with face cold injury that report increased vulnerability many years later

Mine did not go away and still persists to this day. When my hands get cold the smallest finger on each hand is pretty useless. I can also pluck the facial hairs from certain spots easily since there is no feeling there.

Warming up from frostbite is one of the most painful things I have experienced and I try to avoid it at all costs, but it happens so easily I don't even realize when I'm at that state again, until it's too late.

 

[TJsName]

Mine did not go away and still persists to this day. When my hands get cold the smallest finger on each hand is pretty useless. I can also pluck the facial hairs from certain spots easily since there is no feeling there.

Warming up from frostbite is one of the most painful things I have experienced and I try to avoid it at all costs, but it happens so easily I don't even realize when I'm at that state again, until it's too late.

Running the area around the frostbite will reduce the pain sensation. The touch sensors get priority over pain, so one can still funtion while in pain. It is pretty cool feature in ones nervous system.

 

[Creag Nan Drochaid]

In today's snowstorm I am taking a break from writing the 2013 volunteer trail crew reports. Thought I'd add my $0.02 here:

After getting a bit of frostnip 32 years ago I still have poor circulation in my hands, and my fingers go numb very easily even when I am otherwise bundled up against the cold. Synthetic insulation in a windproof shell is the only way I can get out and do much in weather below 20F. Let all take heed...

 

[DougPaul]

There are many people who hike in the lighter shoes without issue as they are moving. The question is, how long would their feet stay warm if they could not move?

I tried wearing my 3-season boots* once at 15F. The answer for me (even with my generally warm feet) was not very long when stopped. (This was just a short break while hiking--things are likely to be worse if one is injured.) My feet were OK while moving.

* These were 3-season boots back in the late 1970s... Fabianos with heavy (by modern standards) single piece leather uppers with a Norwegian welt and Vibram soles with double wool socks. (They were fitted that way.)

And yes, I had booties in my pack.

Doug

 

[sardog1]

My dad froze his feet as a kid. As a result, he was often in pain on x-c ski outings while my feet were comfortable.

I froze the tip of a middle finger many years ago. It has since served as a very reliable hypothermia indicator.

The Limmer Standards go on the shelf here at 20º F. I knew a guy in Alaska who once wore Sorels on a day when he should have been shod in bunny boots. His feet (what remained of them) made the rounds for years afterward as the featured stars of a slideshow presented by the famous orthopedic surgeon who did the cutting ...