Attendance plummets at Baxter...

[forestgnome]

To me, less people doing outdoor actvities = less people care about environmental issues = less people to vote for politicians with environmental agenda = poorer environment for all..

Respectfully disagree. How many people have been to ANWR? No one ever goes there, but people froth at the mouth with seething rage at the mere mention of modern (safe and clean) oil drilling in the area, which they will never see. Yet, they vehemently oppose it.

I always hear that too many people in the forest is bad. So what's the problem? This is my gripe with the hut system; it brings in more people than would be there without them, and the only result I see is litter and snobs. They tell me that enticing more people into the forest is good because people who couldn't give a rat's arse about the environment will now drive four hours and hike three mountain miles to sleep in a noisy hut that smells of sewerage, causing a magical epiphany resulting in an environmentally aware urbanite.

Anyone who loves the forest knows it during childhood. I'm cheering the great news of declining use of the forests.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Another factor in a high-exertion activity like hiking is your weight, and our population (along with many other places in the world) is getting more and more obese. Regardless of the reasons for the obesity, it's tough to climb a mountain when you're 50 to 250 pounds overweight.

Been in a furniture store lately? I hadn't been in one for many years until a couple of weeks ago, and was surprised at how large the 'standard' easy chair has become. Damn things look almost like loveseats, and loveseats look like couches! It's affecting everything, from the larger seats on airlines (yeah!) to supersized automobiles, SUV's, etc. Read an article just a couple of days ago that more and more people cannot use diagnostic tools like ultrasound and MRI's because there's too much tissue to penetrate with existing equipment.

But, I digress. I'm sure the drop in certain types of activities is due to many factors. Blaming it on the internet is a bit myoptic.

 

[Lawn Sale]

The obesity fad has even hit the hiking community...in the area of vanity sizing. I've lost a lot of weight, but there is no way I'm a "medium".

I also disagree with the statement, "To me, less people doing outdoor actvities = less people care about environmental issues = less people to vote for politicians with environmental agenda = poorer environment for all." You don't need to engage in something to have a vested interest in it.

 

[AntlerPeak]

I also disagree with the statement, "To me, less people doing outdoor actvities = less people care about environmental issues = less people to vote for politicians with environmental agenda = poorer environment for all." You don't need to engage in something to have a vested interest in it.

Lawn Sale, you got that right. Back in the days of yore when Robert Marshall was climbing these hills, hikers were few and far between. Marshall and a few others were advocating to a public that for many retained the old belief that the forest was a place to avoid.

Ok i'm getting to the point, in one of his many articles Marshall wrote ( not a direct quote here this is from memory) "People do not need to see the wilderness to reap its benefits. But they need to know wilderness is there and for many that is enough." This speaks directly to the point you made above.

Back in the late 70's when I was on the the 46R exec committee the concern was too many people are climbing the high peaks. Some thought there was a crisis of over crowding in the making. However, in the late 70's the actual numbers decreased for a few years which alieviated the fears the mountains would be trampled down. As we know that decline was short lived. The high numbers of the early to mid seventies pale in comparison to what we have recently seen. Mavs called it a cycle he is likely correct. Besides it's not all bad to see the hills get a respite from hoards of trampers.

 

[AntlerPeak]

Been in a furniture store lately? I hadn't been in one for many years until a couple of weeks ago, and was surprised at how large the 'standard' easy chair has become. Damn things look almost like loveseats, and loveseats look like couches!

Kevin that is a great observation which I hadn't noticed. Now then does this mean the airlines constant shrinking of seats and leg room will bring about reduction of air travelers?

 

[sli74]

Anyone who loves the forest knows it during childhood.

And I must respectfully disagree with this comment . . . not everyone comes from the same background and thus many people are not even introduced to the outdoors as children for a variety of reason, culture, socioeconomic status, living situations, etc, etc . . . to assume that anyone who loves the forest does so as a child is a huge leap from the reality for many many people.

As far as protecting our forests . . . I do think that one will have a greater likelyhood to invest of time, money, etc when you ask them to do so for something they value, as an example . . . I have little interest in let's say mickey mouse and disneyworld and so if they decided that there was oil to be had by digging under there or energy to be gained by putting a zillion windmills up around and in there, I would waste my own energy or time fighting it . . . now let's say the issue becomes about our forest and mountaintops or wilderness areas and I am suddenly interested SO

I do think keeping people invested in our forests and mountains, in our wilderness might help preserve it in the future . . . ????

sli74

 

[grog]

Nobody goes there anymore because it is too crowded.

grog

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Five years of modest declines do not a trend make.

Sorry but by definition (in a math sense) five straight years of declines does make a trend. Whether it is significant I don't know.

Keith

 

[Tom Rankin]

I wonder to what extent the drop off in park visitations is due to the fact that people simply don't have as much as much free time as they used

How much free time you have depends on more than just a job that requires long hours. When your kids go off to college, you find you have more free time, sometimes more than you wish. If a partner dies/leaves, or you lose your job, ditto. Same for when you retire.

Now I just mentioned several things that impact one's cash flow too. Free time is not enough. You also have to have the ability to use it, by having enough money, being healthy, etc.

 

[Peakbagr]

Let try and stay focused on keeping this tied into hiking so it doesn't morph into a sociological commentary.

Thanks

 

[peakbagger]

Decline in Youth Groups

Much as most of us get the chills when a typical "youth group" rolls into a backcountry campsite, the groups have served an important function in getting children out in the backcountry. Granted the ideal situation is that the parents take their children out and expose them to the outdoors, but for many families, the parents are too busy with other activities or have never been themselves. It would be an interesting poll at a VFTT event (before the heavy drinking starts) to run a poll to see how people got interested in outdoor activities. Unfortunately most of the major youth groups are experiencing similiar major declines in membership. These groups were acting as "farm teams" as a way of getting kids interested and no other system is moving in.

The youth groups traditionally acted as a conduit to get kids outdoors. They may not have liked it or they may not have liked the organization but they were introduced. If a child did express some interest, there were other people along with him/her that also had some interest and they learned together along the way. Quite frequently I will run into adults in the backcountry who mentioned that they were a boy scout but dropped out at some point but picked up outdoor activities during college. Another kind of bizarre comment from many (usually female) is that outdoor sanitation is best learned as a child (I.E. some people will not use outhouses and the concept of going off in the woods is completely unacceptable).

As a subsitute, college outing clubs also have acted to bring people into the outdoors, but I suspect that the success rate is lower. For those intrepid souls who found the outdoors though VFTT, it can act as a support group(although some argue its sink or swim!)

The reasons for decline in youth groups could be debated for a long time, but my observations with the group I was involved with is that the volunteers who run the units almost have to work at it full time. Generally it has to be a family activity where both spouses are involved and it really helps if one doesnt work. Given the decline in one earner households, the spare time to attend an average of three meetings a week and activities every other weekend really cuts down the number of active volunteers. Another issue is the legal hurdles that have to be followed, volunteers typically now have to agree to criminal background checks, mandatory reporting of suspected abuse cases, increased insurance liability, and the always possible chance of false accusations of improper conduct. All of these things, tend to cause a lot of people decide to "let someone else" do it. Unfortunately, no one else is stepping up and the remaining adults are slowing retiring.

 

[Jaytrek57]

Interesting comments Peakbagger....

I wish you had identified the youth groups (orgainization). Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCAs and other orgainizations, specifically after school (care) have seen steady, if not an increase in membership(s). {{ Metro Boston}}. This is primarily b/c these orgainizations act as a reasonably priced form of after school care, so parents can work.

I suspect Boy/Girl Scouts have seen a decline b/c they are competing against other extra curricular activities.

The criminal records check (CORI), mandated reporting and such requirements for volunteers is pretty basic stuff. Ask yourself, would you let your child go on trips with volunteers who didn't meet these basic requirements?

The biggest challenge in getting youth (urban) outdoors, is not the myths, the generalizations, nor the lack of interest (I typically turn away kids)...it is the MONEY. An example. This year I have reduced my monthly camping trips to every other month. The biggest reason...gas prices.

Peace.

 

[jmegillon149]

I think it would be interesting to see the numbers not just for outdoor recreation, but for recreation in general. For example, I am also an avid concert goer, I know that attendance for these events has gone down. I also heard somewhere that amusement parks have seen a drop in attendance. I know that professional sports teams don't draw like they once did.

All these things are attributed to money and time. National parks, expecially ones that are far away from most people fit this category of expensive hobbies perfectly, especially with the cost of gas. I've yet to go to Baxter, mainly because the time and planning is kind of involved (though I want to get there next summer)

Personally I tend to stay within 3 hours for my hiking, generally staying in the Whites, and not staying overnight very often. For me its about making a short drive and not spending much money. Being younger than most people on VFTT; my vacation is probably more limited, I likely make less money(still paying my dues), and I also plan things more spur of the moment.

 

[sardog1]

The feds (i.e., USFS) track outdoor recreation participation and have done it since at least 1960. I have started to compile the relevant numbers to prove/disprove my earlier contention in this thread that outdoor recreation participation rates are declining. Until I can finish the analysis, some of you might enjoy reading a brief summary report prepared before the 2005 National Survey on Recreation and the Environment.

 

[cushetunk]

I haven't found it terribly difficult to make a spontaneous reservation at Baxter. Last August I called up on Tuesday and was camping on Friday night at Roaring Brook. I'm no fan of Baxter's policies, but I think it is easy to exagerate them.

Maybe I got my spot because lots of other people are staying home.

 

[coldfeet]

Because of this website I took my family to Acadia last summer and I'm taking my 2 younger children to Baxter in 2 1/2 weeks... we also live in Long Island so it's app 400 miles but I'm giving my kids the experience that I never had, we'll see what they do with it when they get older...on the side....I haven't hiked since May and I'm in bad shape...have a nice day..

 

[Maddy]

I cannot speak to the general population but I was exposed to many people at work. They were aware of my love of the wooods/hiking/etc. and they positively could not relate. Over the years a rare individual went "camping" with their family. They used campers and had all the amenities. They watched movies. They "shopped until they dropped" in No. Conway, and their vehicle proudly "climbed" the auto road. One individual had no idea that MT Washington stood tall before her very eyes. On her return I asked her what she thought of it and she had not a clue that it was even there!!! It must have been "in the clouds" the entire week!!! I am not making this up! One visited Pinkham Notch and made it to Crystal Cascade with her kids. Santa's Land was big as were water slides. A few rode the cog. The general concensus was that camping in a tent/ lean-to and hiking required way too much work.They were after all "on vacation". If they happened upon Acadia Ntl Park they drove the auto rode, stopped at the Jordan gift shop, had popovers on the lawn, maybe took a swim at Sand beach, and visited Thunder Hole. What's the Precipice they ask??? Don't Falcons play some sport? They did however have a great time shopping in Bar Harbor. They came home knowing every detail of every shop and restaurant downtown. Their kids have grown up to be just like mom and dad. For the most part nice people, solid citizens, but they will not be visiting BSP any time soon.
I did have one close friend who raised her kids to be outside. They walked for miles each day in the woods all four seasons, they rode bikes, they camped frequently, skied, snowshoed, etc. I accompanied them on many trips and daily walks. The kids were downright muddy but no one cared. As teens their love of the mountains and the great outdoors intensified. The girl lost interest briefly during her teens, has since married, and her two little ones spend most of their time outside with their parents. They also live in a rural area and enjoy it to the max. Her brothers are avid mountaineers. You can bet their kids will enjoy the great outdoors to. Maybe not all kids who are taught an appreciation of the world around them grow up to experience BSP, ect. but at least you have given them a fighting chance.
Video games/blockbuster/ mall rats/ myspace.com/ have a great appeal to our youth and of course their parents. Life on easy street. Last winter I could not entice two teen girls to come and enjoy the Bamff Festival of Film in Lenox. Brittany Spears was not featured so they had no interest. These two have "camped" at the Hilton in Crawford Notch once. What can I say! The "Knife's Edge" is not on their "to do "list this summer. Probably never will be.
My parents did no hiking/camping/ etc. The big difference I think is that we grew up in a rural area. Our back yard was "the woods". We were not allowed to watch TV but for 30"/day and 1HR on weekends. It mattered not that our friends got to watch TV a lot. Our parents had no problem saying NO!!! We had a choice. We could stop whining and go play outside or we could come in and they would "find something for us to do". This did not bode well so out we went. We develped a relationsip with nature. It was certainly a step up from cleaning kitchen cupboards.
I am not suprised that the attendance at Baxter and the NP has decreased. I worked with a very large group of people and I was the only camper/hiker. A few skied from 10-2 on sunny days. Most had nothing to do with the great outdoors. Cruises, time shares in Maui, Disneyland! Be serious!!! How can you begin to compare Baxter, hiking the "Bubbles", or biking the Carriage Roads to that!
"It's just way too much work"!

 

[forestgnome]

And I must respectfully disagree with this comment . . . not everyone comes from the same background and thus many people are not even introduced to the outdoors as children sli74

Sli74 and Maddy's posts have me rethinking this one. It's important to introduce kids to nature when they are kids, but perhaps some people don't even see a forest until adulthood. But, I still believe that fewer people in the forest is a good thing. The lands are already protected, and I don't think that will change just because fewer people are in the backcountry.

Yesterday, I hiked Champney Falls Trail. The first thing I saw was a dump of human fesces right in the trail, complete with a few stained napkins. The grunt couldn't go off trail and bury it. So I began my hike by burying someone elses fesces. Point being, the grunt didn't see the magic of the forest by visiting it, transforming into another protector of the environment.

That was my forth time burying someone elses fesces in five hikes. The other times were at treeline on Edmand's Path, Bondcliff Tail and the Twinway, all quite far up the mountains. Also, every time I hike, without exception, I bury mulitple tp wads that are in view of the trail. It takes a moment to take a stick and shove it under the topsoil. So, just when does this magical transformation from grunt to conservationist happen?!!!

Cheers to less use of the forest!!!

 

[sapblatt]

All of these reasons may be factors - gas, Internet, gaming, laziness, etc.
I also think distance is a big factor - I can easily get to the WMNF in 2-3 hours depending on the trailhead...BSP is 5-6 hours which rules out dayhiking and means a more "serious" trip must be planned. The reservation system is a turn off too as you may have to commit to hiking well in advance of any weather forecasts.
Internet has been around in a popular way for about a decade now - I doubt this is the sole reason - in fact, the Internet has allowed me to easily learn more about places I would like to visit - the Internet has helped me get out more!

 

[lumberzac]

Internet has been around in a popular way for about a decade now - I doubt this is the sole reason - in fact, the Internet has allowed me to easily learn more about places I would like to visit - the Internet has helped me get out more!

I agree. In fact if it weren’t for the Internet, I probably would have never been to Baxter.