Attendance plummets at Baxter...

[bill bowden]

comments on Baxter attendance

BSP often appears to be uniquely "user unfriendly" compared to many other localities. In part ths is because of interpretation of the late governor's "forever wild" clause and in part because of old reservation system (go to Millinocket and stand in line on new Year's Eve if you want to get your date and site). I love the hiking but it is a difficult destination.

With regard to numbers of hikers, my take is that the number of winter hikers in the Whites is at an all-time high but that the number of 3-season hikers may be in decline. Whether this is due to lessened interest (we had a bit of dry spell in the seventies an dearly eighties I recall)

As for getting younger people involved in hiking and the outdoors; that's a very amusing question. The internet and bulletin boards like this one may be taking the place of hiking clubs like AMC, Subsig etc; and are fine for "established" hikers but not so great for beginners needing instruction. With the greatest respect for adults who volunteer time with youth groups, the kids I see in the woods often look more traumatized than entranced.

 

[Mad Townie]

One thing to remember about Baxter State Park is what Governor Baxter said about Katahdin: ''Buildings crumble, monuments decay and wealth vanishes, but Katahdin in all its glory shall forever remain the mountain of the people of Maine.'' He never envisioned, in those days of difficult travel, the great interest that "out of staters" would have in his glorious mountain. He also had a very special consideration for the people whose governor he had been.

All that said, I want to tell Coldfeet that I hope you and your family have a fabulous time in the Park!

Oh, and that sentiment certainly applies to everyone else here, too. We don't mind at all sharing with others who respect the place and treat it well.

 

[ChrisB]

BSP often appears to be uniquely "user unfriendly" compared to many other localities.

Bill,

I would use the term, "user neutral" rather than "user unfriendly."

I have heard lots of hikers bitch about the Baxter regs, the reservation system, the limits on use, etc. etc.

To them I say: "HELLO... IT's REALLY NOT ABOUT YOU!!" (As hard as that might be to accept.)

It is about the land, the quality of the experience, and the faithfulness to P. Baxter's wishes and vision.

Who cares if YOU can't get the campsite you want, on the night YOU want, near the trail head YOU need to access. So what?

The Park is not there to serve you. Its primary mission is stewardship of the Baxter lands.

You (we) are just a footnote to forever wild.

cb

PS Bill, nice rant in the latest NH AMC Newsletter. I am with you brother!

 

[dvbl]

Nobody goes there anymore because it is too crowded.

grog

One of Yogi Berra's best.

 

[Pig Pen]

Another Yogi Berraism:

If people don't want to go to Baxter, no one's stopping them!

 

[Pig Pen]

"HELLO... IT's REALLY NOT ABOUT YOU!!" (As hard as that might be to accept.)

Actually, from my perspective, it is all about me.

 

[Pig Pen]

And another thing!

Hiking Baxter Peak in winter must be more dangerous than climbing Everest or K2. You can get a permit to climb everest or K2 solo, but not to hike Baxter peak solo in winter.

 

[sweeper]

It's hard enough to get to Baxter and to add the what thuja said about day hikers, is there really any "DAY" hikers in Baxt'a? It take me 7 hr to get there.

Like forestnome, I too think it's a good thing.

 

[spencer]

What the hell are you all talking about?

I wanted to take my field crew to BSP for a couple of days to experience it.

I called two weeks ago and got reservations at Roaring Brook for two lean-tos for this past Thursday night. We hiked the mountain on Friday.

A few days after I made those reservations I decided I wanted to stay for a couple of days longer so I made reservations for me and my wife. I took what was available, which happened to be Trout Brook Farm for two nights. I've do this sort of last minute planning routinely for BSP and have yet to be disappointed.

Quit your whining. The park is so much more than Baxter Pk.

Don't be like those dirt bags that cruise around the Tote Rd. too fast, in a rush to climb the mountain and get home. If that's you, don't bother coming...

Percy wouldn't have like you, anyway...

BSP is the best backcountry experience in the northeast, bar none. The Park admin is doing something right...

spencer

 

[Pig Pen]

Oh, I forgot something.

I forgot to mention the BSP authority's strict policy against hiking safely in the winter. We all know that the most important thing to consider in planning a winter hike is the weather. However Baxter has a different approach. You pick your date two weeks or more in advance and then you hike on that date come heck or high water. If you happen to be in the area on a clear windless day and you want to hike Baxter peak, too bad. The BSP authority would rather have you reserve a date in a couple of weeks when the next blizzard will be coming through. (But at least you'll have three of your freinds to turn around and waste a seven hour drive with)

 

[cushetunk]

I sense the real frustration here is that everyone lives seven hours away from Baxter.

 

[Maddy]

Bill,

I would use the term, "user neutral" rather than "user unfriendly."

I have heard lots of hikers bitch about the Baxter regs, the reservation system, the limits on use, etc. etc.

!

I love Baxter's rules. Those rangers don't miss a trick. I went up there several years ago with an acquaintance. I was not familiar with the park but I had heard that they were very strict. We were suppose to move into our cabin at say 2pm. We arrive an hour early and my friend insisted that we could move in. We no sooner got the last item through the door "Ranger Dan" arrived and we got to move it all back out. She was PO'd and I couldn't stop laughing. Personally I think it sets the tone for "respecting" the park and if you don't like it you can always move on.
This may not be politically correct but I go with the philosophy...."the fewer, the better." Most of my trips to the mountains are NOT during peak flow. I do like to see kids having fun hiking and camping but only if their parents are responsible and teaching them proper outdoor ethics.

 

[thuja]

paternalism, not ose limits, is the issue

Bill,

I would use the term, "user neutral" rather than "user unfriendly."

I have heard lots of hikers bitch about the Baxter regs, the reservation system, the limits on use, etc. etc.

To them I say: "HELLO... IT's REALLY NOT ABOUT YOU!!" (As hard as that might be to accept.)

It is about the land, the quality of the experience, and the faithfulness to P. Baxter's wishes and vision.

Who cares if YOU can't get the campsite you want, on the night YOU want, near the trail head YOU need to access. So what?

The Park is not there to serve you. Its primary mission is stewardship of the Baxter lands.

You (we) are just a footnote to forever wild.

cb

PS Bill, nice rant in the latest NH AMC Newsletter. I am with you brother!

Limits on backcountry user numbers, to keep a place wild, or to protect sensitive species from human disturbance, philosophically I have no problems with these although they can be constraining. They are in place in many national parks and federal wilderness areas. Baxter is not alone in this. What I *do* have problems with is the silly paternalistic attitude of the Baxter management and the employees. Really, these people consistently overestimate the degree of difficulty, risk, danger, etc, associated with routes on the mountain, and try to dumb it all down as much as possible. A couple of personal examples:

-about fifteen years ago I did a day hike up Baxter from the Katahdin stream campground with my 60-year old mother. Once on top, we took the knife-edge trail down to chimney pond. From Chimney, we were going to go back up and over, via I think the saddle trail and the slide trail down to Abol. I think we were casting about for the beginnings of the Saddle trail down at Chimney Pond, shortly after 3PM, and we asked some person in a ranger outfit where the saddle trail was. We were utterly dumbfounded when this person told us that since it was after 3PM, the mountain was "closed," it was prohibited to "start up the mountain" and we should exit out to the Roaring Brook trailhead, which would have left us on the wrong side of the mountain something like ten road miles from our car. After digesting this preposterous order we politely blew her off and took off up the saddle trail, exiting the bottom of abol with an hour or two of daylight to spare.

-there is a campsite, lean-to, I think, somewhere on the NW basin trail, but you're not allowed to reserve this campsite without spending a night at russell pond first, because it is supposed to be "impossible" to get there with a pack except via russell pond. Having taken overnight packs from the Roaring Brook trailhead to Russell Pond, via the summit of Katahdin, and the NW basin trail, which is a considerably longer routeI know this to be a falsehood. Why not just point out to potential registrars that it is a relatively long day, that not everybody would/could do, and maybe they shoudl think twice about it, rather than just saying nobody could do this?

-A number of interesting longer-than-a-day cross-country bushwhacking routes are effectively rendered impossible (or illegal)

I have no personal experience with them, but I understand the restrictions on climbing and winter use are even more egregiously paternalistic.

Contrast this Baxter system with, for example, restrictions on travel over the summit plateau in the Gaspé (to protect the caribou herd), or various complex zone restrictions in Yellowstone National Park to keep people out of seasonal high-quality and high-use grizzly habitat. I may occasionally chafe at these latter restrictions, but I respect them and I respect the philosophy behind them. I do not respect the philosphy behind a lot of the Baxter rules, which have nothing to do with keeping a place wild and everything to do with lowest-commond-denominator paternalism and some sort of stalinist managerial tidiness. Last I checked, wilderness was about learning judgement and self reliance, not letting big brother chaperone you.

 

[Paradox]

Personally, I believe the decline is due to the poisoning of our purity of essence with fluoridated water.

 

[Maddy]

Why not just point out to potential registrars that it is a relatively long day, that not everybody would/could do, and maybe they shoudl think twice about it, rather than just saying nobody could do this?


.

I agree that this might work in a rational society but it would be interesting to see if they did "bend the rules" how many more SAR'S would be needed? Lots of folks don't heed the warnings on the Rockpile all four seasons. They go up for their "long day" with no emergency gear in their sandals. Some don't even bring water of a map. Not everyone understsands what "thinking twice" means and then someone has to risk life and limb to pluck them out of the mess they got themselves into. We all have the inate ability to push the envelope just a little bit more each time we get away with something. I think Baxter might eventually "change" and it remains to be seen if it will be "for the better." I sure hope is doesn't.
Look at what we have sitting in the middle of Crawford Notch now as we try to upgrade and accomodate more and more people.
Maybe their is some benefit to "big brother watching us"!
I have to tell you that I was very happy that the ranger had us exit the cabin because the individual that I was with firmly believes that the rules are not for her. Well that ended it, ane she was not inclined to challenge any more of Baxter's policies or to mouth off to the ranger a second time.

 

[dvbl]

Dear Acadia National Park,

Yes, I know everyone seems to be talking about Baxter. It's tough being the little brother. But we love you, too. Group hug.

 

[Artex]

Dear Acadia National Park,

Yes, I know everyone seems to be talking about Baxter. It's tough being the little brother. But we love you, too. Group hug.

Ha ha ha! Love both parks, but Acadia is a touch closer so I'm there more often (will have been there five or six times this year come October). I have nothing more to really add other than that. I just felt like bragging that I was closer than a lot of you.

 

[cbcbd]

I sense the real frustration here is that everyone lives seven hours away from Baxter.

I completely agree with this. It'd be great to be even "just" 4-5 hours from it
As for the last minute bookings, I guess it depends on the group size you have, because I planned a solo weeklong trip there with a week's advance during 4th of July week and had no problem getting the sites I wanted (only site that was booked solid was Chimney).

But, I agree with this and have a comment about it:

What I *do* have problems with is the silly paternalistic attitude of the Baxter management and the employees. Really, these people consistently overestimate the degree of difficulty, risk, danger, etc, associated with routes on the mountain, and try to dumb it all down as much as possible.

When I was planning my weeklong trip I had a whole itinerary set up, with mileages between sites set to give myself nice ~15mi days - enough to cover most of the park and keep me hiking most of the day.

I call them and they tell me that I can't book any sites that are more than 10 miles apart from each other. Man, was I pissed.
I had to replan the whole week with <10 mile days, and now I was already seeing less than what I had planned on seeing and was spending hours sitting around at the campsite waiting for the sun to go down.

The other pieces of the reservation process I could overlook (whatever, it's the process, just go with it) but the 10-mile detail has always stuck in my mind as a thorn since that REALLY affected my time in the park unlike any jump-through-hoops reservation system would.
Also, when I was there I met this local hiker who told me that he had never had an issue or heard about this 10-mile restriction

Anyway, it was still an excellent trip and well worth the drive.

 

[TCD]

I've been to Acadia once. Haven't been to Baxter. Both are a little too far away. After reading all of the above, I am thankful that I live in the middle of the Adirondacks. I love my local mountains around Lake George. It's 1 hour to the High Peaks or the Greens, 2 hours to the Gunks, 3 hours to Rumney, 3.5 hours to the Whites. And 8 hours (by air) to the Sierras, Red Rocks, BC, etc., if I want to travel 8 hours.

 

[spaddock]

And 8 hours (by air) to the Sierras, Red Rocks, BC, etc., if I want to travel 8 hours.

That's a good point. I've never been to BSP, hopefully this September. For me it would be a 12 hour drive, so say at least $200 in gas, probably more like $300 and meals along the way. Two weeks ago, I left Ottawa at 8:30am and was driving in Banff National park just 6 or 7 hours later.

All that to say is there are a lot of options for where I spend my outdoor dollar.


-Shayne