compass vs gps

[Woody]

Some very interesting discussion on using gps systems here. In my own case, while I think that I am pretty good with a map and a compass, the gps just gives me that little bit of information to ease my mind. I wanted the gps specifically for above treeline travel in case of bad weather. If the weather is bad on my way up I will still turn around and go down. On the other hand, if the weather turns ugly while I am above treeline I have waypoints programmed into my gps so that I know how to get back to the trail at treeline. Granted, this is not a very frequent occurance, but it gives me some piece of mind.
Now that I have the gps I have found other uses for it as well. While using a map and compass and observing my surroundings I feel that I am pretty good at figuring out my location pretty closely. Using the gps to also take an altitude reading I can essentially pinpoint my location. While this is not really necessary to get from point A to point B, it is nice to know exactly how far I have gone and how far I have left to go to arrive at my destination.
Good map and compass skills are essential for backcountry travel. The limited bushwacking I have done has only been with my map and compass. The gps is just another tool to use, and I have fun using it. We all have our own hiking styles and essential equipment lists. Personal preference and experience determines these things. I tend to do quite a few solo hikes so taking the gps along gives me that piece of mind that I will get to where I intend to go.

 

[Neil]

You enjoy the pursuit of technology without forgetting the simpler joys of skilled experience.

Just for the record. Are you implying that gps is "non-skilled"? Hah! Gotcha!

 

[Neil]

I really enjoy these discussions. It reminds me of my early days learning to get around the woods with only a map and a compass and not having a clue how it was supposed to work. So many times we wondered where the hell we were, willing the map to tell us. That's when we learned to throw an imaginary rectangle onto the map and say, "we are probably somewhere in here". I was only really scared a few times but those times did teach me more than any book or course ever could.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

And Just When We Thought We Could Count on our GPS'

This item was posted on Yahoo's News Service a few minutes ago.


Sun's next 11-year cycle could be 50 pct stronger By Deborah Zabarenko
Mon Mar 6, 3:49 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Sun-spawned cosmic storms that can play havoc with earthly power grids and orbiting satellites could be 50 percent stronger in the next 11-year solar cycle than in the last one, scientists said on Monday.

Using a new model that takes into account what happens under the sun's surface and data about previous solar cycles, astronomers offered a long-range forecast for solar activity that could start as soon as this year or as late as 2008.

They offered no specific predictions of solar storms, but they hope to formulate early warnings that will give power companies, satellite operators and others on and around Earth a few days to prepare.

"This prediction of an active solar cycle suggests we're potentially looking at more communications disruptions, more satellite failures, possible disruptions of electrical grids and blackouts, more dangerous conditions for astronauts," said Richard Behnke of the Upper Atmosphere Research Section at the National Science Foundation.

"Predicting and understanding space weather will soon be even more vital than ever before," Behnke said at a telephone news briefing.

The prediction, roughly analogous to the early prediction of a severe hurricane season on Earth, involves the number of sunspots on the solar surface, phenomena that have been monitored for more than a century.

TWISTED MAGNETIC FIELDS

Every 11 years or so, the sun goes through an active period, with lots of sunspots. This is important, since solar storms -- linked to twisted magnetic fields that can hurl out energetic particles -- tend to occur near sunspots.

The sun is in a relatively quiet period now, but is expected to get more active soon, scientists said. However, there is disagreement as to whether the active period will start within months -- late 2006 or early 2007 -- or years, with the first signs in late 2007 or early 2008.

Whenever it begins, the new forecasting method shows sunspot activity is likely to be 30 percent to 50 percent stronger than the last active period. The peak of the last cycle was in 2001, the researchers said, but the period of activity can span much of a decade.

The strongest solar cycle in recent memory occurred in the late 1950s, when there were few satellites aloft, no astronauts in orbit and less reliance on electrical power grids than there is now.

If a similarly active period occurred now, the impact would be hard to predict, according to Joseph Kunches of the National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration's Space Environment Center in Colorado.

"It's pretty uncertain what would happen, which makes this work more relevant," Kunches said.

"What we have here is a prediction that the cycle is going to be very active, and what we need and what we're of course working on is to be able to predict individual storms with a couple days or hours in advance so the grids can take the action," Behnke said.

 

[Neil]

I guess I better expand that rectangle.

 

[dms]

"un-fun"

I think Erik said it just right. My comments about using a map and compass are not given in the context of Viking explorers and the like, nor to snub anyone at the "navigators ball". I am only talking about using a map and compass to do the the hundreds of off trail peaks that I am familiar with on the NE 3k list. I agree with Erik that to use a gps on these peaks makes the trip unchallenging, uninteresting, and "un-fun".

 

[Nessmuk]

Just for the record. Are you implying that gps is "non-skilled"? Hah! Gotcha!

Don't even think of going there in this thread!!!

 

[Nessmuk]

"This prediction of an active solar cycle suggests we're potentially looking at more communications disruptions, more satellite failures, possible disruptions of electrical grids and blackouts,

Ahh, to be back in the days of the nuclear threat, when Air Force Strategic Air Command navigators routinely trained to fly across the globe using only dead reckoning and celestial techniques, without hope or expectation of any electronic or radio navigation aids surviving the first strike EMP. Throw me back into that briar patch.

 

[forestgnome]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Sun-spawned cosmic storms that can play havoc with earthly power grids and orbiting satellites could be 50 percent stronger in the next 11-year solar

YESSSS!!!!!! I surely hope so!!! I don't use GPS, but I do love the northern lights, which are spawned by solar storms. What a treat after a long day hiking.

 

[tonycc]

Also note that solar activity may be a significant factor in global temperatures on Earth, more sunspots mean more solar output. The last 50 years or so have been the most active period of solar activity recorded. Nicely confounded with GHG emissions unfortunately. This prediction could be bad news for glaciers and other fun places to play.

Taking this thread back on topic, I have to wonder how many people who protest so strongly against using a GPS have actually used one? My experience is that a GPS is just one more tool in the arsenal to have a safe and fun off trail experience.
- It doesn't help you avoid cliffs or dirty areas.
- I find it provides less route finding information than my map (I hate those contour lines and tiny screens), and is typically no more useful in pointing a direction than my compass and dead reckoning skills.
- I find it can really slow you down sometimes, ie. like looking at the screen instead of just walking uphill and keeping the sun over your left shoulder. But, I've seen this happen with compass users also.
- At times it can significantly reduce the stress level and make a trip go faster, ie. in groups doesn't it seem that everyone tends to have a different opinion about where they are on the map exactly? And, the more critical knowing your location is the more likely there will be differences and you spend more time discussing it?

I have been brought into the modern age kicking and fighting the entire way. The thought of carrying a sat phone in a remote region disgusted me, but now that I have given in I find my stress level has gone down significantly. I tend to carry a GPS, but seldom turn it on. Knowing it is there is comforting to me. Using it to settle a location/route finding dispute among a group is very helpful. Knowing that I will be able to find a specific location quickly in case of an emergency is almost mandatory to my sense of security.

Tony

 

[DougPaul]

Geeze, in no way was I comparing my canoe in the fog experience with a dangerous coastal fogbound situation requiring all the navigational aids possible for safety and survival. Purely by your mention of navigating in the fog in a prior post, I was keyed to a very memorable and pleasurable experience I had in simple and ideal conditions, not off a stormy Maine coast. I thought I'd share that particular experience, that's all.

OK.

Being in heavy fog can be rather eerie. On land, on a lake, or at sea. And it can be enjoyable on any of the three. When the hazard level is high, I'm frequently too busy to enjoy it, but the rest of the time it is often fun.

I was also trying to emphasize the broader point that we hikers are just playing games for our own amusement and are at liberty to ignore (or not) modern electronic navigation aids if we wish. But there are times and situations where they become very useful...

Anyone for a 4K peaks in the clouds list? They don't count if you can see more than 20ft.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

This item was posted on Yahoo's News Service a few minutes ago.
Sun's next 11-year cycle could be 50 pct stronger

The designers of GPS were aware of this and chose frequencies that would continue to be usable under these conditions. The primary effect is increase ionization of the ionosphere which will decrease the accuracy of GPS somewhat. (This also happens on a day-night cycle--GPS is more accurate late at night.)

The GPS satellites are also radiation hardened. Remember it is a DoD system designed for military use--I rather doubt that they want to schedule their operations around the sunspot cycles...

However for us Hams that like VHF (30-300MHz), the peak of the cycle brings E-skip, F-skip, and aurora bounce which allow international communication on frequencies that are usually limited to a few hundred miles. (Solar flares can do the same at any time.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Ahh, to be back in the days of the nuclear threat, when Air Force Strategic Air Command navigators routinely trained to fly across the globe using only dead reckoning and celestial techniques, without hope or expectation of any electronic or radio navigation aids surviving the first strike EMP. Throw me back into that briar patch.

Dead reckoning is still very much alive in the form of inertial navigation systems (INS) which are increasingly integrated with GPS. And I wouldn't be surprised if manual dead reckoning and celestial techniques are still taught, if only as backups.

Both techniques are still alive in the nautical community, if only as backups. Charts, compass, and dead reckoning are the tools of choice for small boats when landmarks and/or navigation markers are visible.

Doug

 

[Tim Horn]

GPS or compass? It does not matter they both perform the same basic function. GPS enables altimeters, auto tracking ect ect. It just stores the info automatically rather than in long hand or marking up your map. Personally I have found that the GPS is a fair weather friend (Garmin Etrex)That is it works perfect in good weather but in the clouds it rarely finds a signal. GPS are very good for deep forest work like Owl tracking, marking game trails and migration routes. By using the waypoint system you can move from one nest to another in much less time than it would take with a map and compass. This is due to the ability to just forge on through the brush following the path of least resistance and instantly being able to see the direction to your target. Sure you can pull out the map and compass but if you have ever whacked your way up an down a steep canyon you know how much you sweat and how much a hassle it is to pull out the map and compass and read it while clinging to a tree. You can argue symantics but in real life GPs's save research time and that is probably their best and highest use. For the most part here in the east I feel comfortable using dead reckoning and a map to navigate. Still I never whack without a compass or 2. The GPS I carry when I am curious about elevation gained, speed ect ect. I guess the question is, Is it "cheating" to use a compass and map when whacking?

 

[DougPaul]

Personally I have found that the GPS is a fair weather friend (Garmin Etrex)That is it works perfect in good weather but in the clouds it rarely finds a signal.

The GPS signals are virtually unaffected by the weather. Perhaps there is a problem with your individual GPS or you have it in a wet case?

Water droplets and snow flakes are much smaller the wavelength of the GPS signal (~19cm) and thus have little effect. Larger objects containing water (plants, leaves, flesh) absorb the siganal very strongly. (People have been known to hold their thumbs over the antenna of the Etrex--the antenna is just under the globe symbol above the display.) Also if the GPS is enclosed in a wet case, the case would aborb the signal.

Doug

 

[Pat R]

I use both...for the trailless in the Catskill Mnts, a GPS can come in handy near the summit and a map and compass are always in my daypack!

 

[Neil]

This thread and most of the posts have completely missed the mark.

All that's missing is a ref yelling, " In this cornah,... Garmin. And in this cornah,...Silva.

The thread title should read, Gps AND compass.

Real men use both, and women prefer it that way, aint that right gals?

 

[Nessmuk]

Dead reckoning is still very much alive in the form of inertial navigation systems (INS) which are increasingly integrated with GPS. And I wouldn't be surprised if manual dead reckoning and celestial techniques are still taught, if only as backups.

Both techniques are still alive in the nautical community, if only as backups. Charts, compass, and dead reckoning are the tools of choice for small boats when landmarks and/or navigation markers are visible.

Doug

I can't speak for on the sea, but celestial nav is not taught at all anymore to air navigators, and the traditional (pre-gps) navigation techniques are hardly addressed. The few navigators being turned out today would have to think twice to remember if "dead reckoning" was ever mentioned in training. The last time I flew with an INS system (PINS) on board, it crapped out literally within sight of the north pole and was worse than worthless, occupying time that could have been better spent with the sextant.

 

[DougPaul]

The last time I flew with an INS system (PINS) on board, it crapped out literally within sight of the north pole and was worse than worthless, occupying time that could have been better spent with the sextant.

Everything is capable of malfunctioning...

Many (most?) long range commercial aircraft have INS systems. And many military aircraft have integrated INS/GPS systems--the INS covers any gaps in the GPS locations. Probably a little heavy to carry on a hike...

Doug

 

[KayakDan]

Different scenarios-different means-they are all tools to get you where you are going.

Map and compass-there's nothing like taking a bearing and paddling into the fog for a couple of miles and landing on the beach on an island-right at your campsite! Excellent!
I just wouldn't get that feeling with "goto".
Never been "lost" in the woods-just misplaced
Quick check of the map and heading-short bushwhack and we're back on trail.

GPS-sailing on the coast of Maine,the scenery moves a whole lot faster,and yeah,I wanna know I'm headed towards that ledge in the middle of nowhere!

I like 'em both for different reasons,and plan to get better at using both.