Hiker to be Charged for Rescue

[peakbagger]

Given the potential to skew the data I sure would like to see the data and the analysis method. Easy to skew the results based on the study methodology. I see far more ATV incidents reported than hiker incidents reported most weeks. I expect the average ATV incident takes less resources per incident while hiking incidents require more resources and tend to occur at inconvenient off shift hours I am not aware if F&G runs a nightshift so hiker incidents tend to occur on overtime after a long day while most ATV incidents are daytime . ATVs tend to have more special events that require extensive F&G manning but those hours are probably wrapped into normal duty versus ATV incidences. Of course there is pretty universal outcry that ATV usage is under enforced in the region and F&G has made it known that they are seriously understaffed to do enforcement.

As for the contention that hikers dont contribute to the economy, another case of lets see the numbers. AMC does charge room and meals tax, the major state revenue extraction method for tourists of all kinds. As most (if not all) of the AMC huts are in unincorporated townships, they would not be paying significant property taxes anyhow.

I do agree in having hikers participate in funding F&G but as the state has come to the conclusion the enforcement effort to make it mandatory is not worth the revenue I dont see that happening. I personally do buy a hike safe card and encourage others to do so but expect the ones who buy the cards are least likely to need them.

 

[Mike P.]

Other uses of the WMNF have licenses, fees, fines for breaking laws, we don't have a fine for hiking to fast, fishermen should be near water, ATV's and sleds on wide trails in a trail system or on a frozen lake. I don't have a two peak limit on any given day and as we all know, we can hike 24/7/365, the others are not open all year.

Hunter's use the woods closest to hikers, however, they do very little hunting high up on the peaks and in many cases now, may be using an ATV also. On any given day, I could be almost anywhere in the Whites where I am on the way to a view or a peak. This group probably takes more precautions on telling people where we are going and when we will be home. Do you believe most of the new breed of hikers are? If they can't get into Lafayette Place and decide to go up Greenleaf of the Shookumchuk, do you believe they are telling anyone about that change?

 

[JoshandBaron]

Also a notorious post hike McD customer. The shut down in Gorham is killing me!!

I was up there last weekend and the drive thru was open!

 

[jfb]

Negligence is a legal standard. As I understand it, to be negligent, one must first have a duty to others to exercise care. One then must break/fail that duty. This results in damages or harm that are a direct result of the original omission.

If I toss a bottle of whiskey into the fray or I do any of it by design, it becomes recklessness.

With regards to hiking, I've seen this definition of negligence: http://attorney-myers.com/2013/10/negligence-gross-negligence-willful-wanton-reckless-conduct/

 

[jniehof]

As for the contention that hikers dont contribute to the economy, another case of lets see the numbers.

Also note that the hiking community in general (not a large fraction of the entire hiking populace, alas) also pays in "in-kind" in the form of trail maintenance, and the volunteer SAR folks that carry a lot of the load are largely drawn from the hiking and climbing community. When I lead a trip that brings people up from Mass to pay into the tourist economy, am I "costing" or "contributing"? Are they? Not to denigrate the conservation and other contributions from the hunting, angling, and other outdoor communities--just that if one is trying to calculate "givers" and "takers" down to the dime, one's going to have an awful hard time getting everything onto the balance sheet. And of course plenty of people do more than one thing.

It wasn't that long ago that the most expensive SAR effort in NH history involved a toddler wandering out of the backyard. Anybody for a toddler tax?

 

[Nessmuk]

In recent years, as a 20+year SAR team volunteer, we have seen increasing numbers of dementia related incidents with all kinds of SAR success rates. They often either wander away from their home or from a live-in care facility. Who should pay the SAR fine in those cases? The spouse or other home care-giver, or the facility manager, either of which could have neglected to keep doors and windows absolutely locked 24/7. While NY, even with a relatively high tax rate, has budget issues when it comes to funding the DEC and rangers, I don't know how the no-income-tax-state of NH budgets F&G, and thus has decided to institute the hiking card system with potential penalties and fines. While there has been talk of such in NY, and I have been frustrated at foolish lost persons making stupid mistakes, I hope NY never goes that route.

 

[DayTrip]

I was up there last weekend and the drive thru was open!

Excellent! Although I must say I had a pretty nice feed at Burger King my last time through there. Have options now....

 

[TJsName]

Excellent! Although I must say I had a pretty nice feed at Burger King my last time through there. Have options now....

I'm loving this sub-thread!

To redress the idea that people who day trip from MA don't contribute anything, I looked at my credit card. In the past 2 years I've spent over $8k in NH, the vast majority (close to 75%) being subject to either meals or gas tax (~$0.23/gal). Granted, I do drive a Prius, so that only add a couple of bucks per fill, so it's basically an extra toll. With that, I'd estimate I contribute $45-65 in gas tax and $125-$175 in meals tax to the NH state budget every year. I think it's fair to say it's about $200/year. Methodology Notes: I primarily drive on 93 and 16, both of which have tolls that I am not counting. The tolls help cover expenses so it could be argued that they are revenue neutral, as I know what I'm getting out of it. This breakdown ignores anything bought with cash, and anything bought by the people I bring with me. I often am paying for two people, so for meals tax, my numbers are likely higher than a single persons would be.

So, if I take 25 trips a year, that's $200 per year/25 trips per year = $8/trip. If we assume the average car going hiking in NH has the same cost/trip as me (they might not buy as much food, but probably buy more gas). Then if there are 1,000 vehicle trips from MA to NH on a given weekend day, that's $16,000/weekend. If we assume mid-week volume is 1/20th of the weekends, that's another $4000. That's $20,000/week, and hiking season peaks for roughly 20 weeks (Mid-May thru Mid October), that's $400,000. If we assume that shoulder season and winter hikers are a tenth as prevalent, then that's another 32 weeks * $2000, for a total of $464,000 a year. Again, feel free to tinker with any assumptions to see what the range is, but I'd be willing to guess that hikers from MA contribute at least a half million dollars to NH every year.

 

[DayTrip]

I'm loving this sub-thread!

To redress the idea that people who day trip from MA don't contribute anything, I looked at my credit card. In the past 2 years I've spent over $8k in NH, the vast majority (close to 75%) being subject to either meals or gas tax (~$0.23/gal). Granted, I do drive a Prius, so that only add a couple of bucks per fill, so it's basically an extra toll. With that, I'd estimate I contribute $45-65 in gas tax and $125-$175 in meals tax to the NH state budget every year. I think it's fair to say it's about $200/year. Methodology Notes: I primarily drive on 93 and 16, both of which have tolls that I am not counting. The tolls help cover expenses so it could be argued that they are revenue neutral, as I know what I'm getting out of it. This breakdown ignores anything bought with cash, and anything bought by the people I bring with me. I often am paying for two people, so for meals tax, my numbers are likely higher than a single persons would be.

So, if I take 25 trips a year, that's $200 per year/25 trips per year = $8/trip. If we assume the average car going hiking in NH has the same cost/trip as me (they might not buy as much food, but probably buy more gas). Then if there are 1,000 vehicle trips from MA to NH on a given weekend day, that's $16,000/weekend. If we assume mid-week volume is 1/20th of the weekends, that's another $4000. That's $20,000/week, and hiking season peaks for roughly 20 weeks (Mid-May thru Mid October), that's $400,000. If we assume that shoulder season and winter hikers are a tenth as prevalent, then that's another 32 weeks * $2000, for a total of $464,000 a year. Again, feel free to tinker with any assumptions to see what the range is, but I'd be willing to guess that hikers from MA contribute at least a half million dollars to NH every year.

As a day hiker from CT I have a similar NH spending volume. Usually a 1/2 tank of gas (although my new car is much better so I usually fill up in CT now), $10-$15 at a fast food establishment of some sort, plus either an annual parking pass or day use $5 pass probably for half my trips, and of course tolls (usually the Rte 93 one twice and the 2 on Everett once on way home). I did 29 hikes in NH last year. I know there are quite a few people day tripping from CT so that is likely another decent source of out of state revenue.

 

[egilbe]

I try to eat in NH whenever I hike there. Friendly's in North Conway on the way home for a burger, fries and milkshake, sometimes McGrath's or Merlinis, Merlonis?

 

[skiguy]

The “Hike Safe Card” covers eating fast food? Can’t wait to get one of those.

 

[skiguy]

I'm loving this sub-thread!

To redress the idea that people who day trip from MA don't contribute anything, I looked at my credit card. In the past 2 years I've spent over $8k in NH, the vast majority (close to 75%) being subject to either meals or gas tax (~$0.23/gal). Granted, I do drive a Prius, so that only add a couple of bucks per fill, so it's basically an extra toll. With that, I'd estimate I contribute $45-65 in gas tax and $125-$175 in meals tax to the NH state budget every year. I think it's fair to say it's about $200/year. Methodology Notes: I primarily drive on 93 and 16, both of which have tolls that I am not counting. The tolls help cover expenses so it could be argued that they are revenue neutral, as I know what I'm getting out of it. This breakdown ignores anything bought with cash, and anything bought by the people I bring with me. I often am paying for two people, so for meals tax, my numbers are likely higher than a single persons would be.

So, if I take 25 trips a year, that's $200 per year/25 trips per year = $8/trip. If we assume the average car going hiking in NH has the same cost/trip as me (they might not buy as much food, but probably buy more gas). Then if there are 1,000 vehicle trips from MA to NH on a given weekend day, that's $16,000/weekend. If we assume mid-week volume is 1/20th of the weekends, that's another $4000. That's $20,000/week, and hiking season peaks for roughly 20 weeks (Mid-May thru Mid October), that's $400,000. If we assume that shoulder season and winter hikers are a tenth as prevalent, then that's another 32 weeks * $2000, for a total of $464,000 a year. Again, feel free to tinker with any assumptions to see what the range is, but I'd be willing to guess that hikers from MA contribute at least a half million dollars to NH every year.

Just to parse my own words from another thread: It always cracks me up when people not from NH think it's their God given right to visit the state and expect to be treated like royalty. When things don't roll their way and not everyone licks between their toes the threats of never visiting the State start rolling out. Do you think residents of NH never visit other states and pay their fair share of tolls, parking fees, pay taxes on food bought, pay taxes on Hotels stayed in, and yes when they get hurt and need to be rescued they pay their fair share of that too. I think visitors from out of State whom are up on their high horse ought to start obeying New Hampshire's laws or find another state to unload their ignorance on. Our rules are to protect visitors and residents. Play by the rules or take your whining elsewhere. Flame retardant suit now on.

Still got my suit on!

 

[iAmKrzys]

The “Hike Safe Card” covers eating fast food? Can’t wait to get one of those.

"Show us your Hike Safe Card and save 10%!" - this might work better than any stories of negligent hikers getting charged.

 

[DayTrip]

"Show us your Hike Safe Card and save 10%!" - this might work better than any stories of negligent hikers getting charged.

That is awesome....and maybe not a bad idea!

 

[DayTrip]

Just to parse my own words from another thread: It always cracks me up when people not from NH think it's their God given right to visit the state and expect to be treated like royalty. When things don't roll their way and not everyone licks between their toes the threats of never visiting the State start rolling out. Do you think residents of NH never visit other states and pay their fair share of tolls, parking fees, pay taxes on food bought, pay taxes on Hotels stayed in, and yes when they get hurt and need to be rescued they pay their fair share of that too. I think visitors from out of State whom are up on their high horse ought to start obeying New Hampshire's laws or find another state to unload their ignorance on. Our rules are to protect visitors and residents. Play by the rules or take your whining elsewhere. Flame retardant suit now on.

Still got my suit on!

What's with all the hostility toward out of state "flatlanders"? There are ass hats from every state that travel to other states and expect the royal treatment. Ever been to Newport? NYC? Obnoxious entitled people travel to plenty of places other than NH and demand the world and complain about everything. There are many of us that travel from out of state into NH that are very appreciative of the opportunities in the state, spend our money there and expect nothing in return but the enjoyment of it. I've been going to NH for over 40 years and my perspective on issues in the state is probably far more like yours than someone from MA or CT. Tourism is a substantial part of NH revenues and out of state travelers make up a big chunk of that pie whether you like it or not. That doesn't make us all a**holes. That is just a fact of economics and is nothing special to NH.

 

[skiguy]

What's with all the hostility toward out of state "flatlanders"? There are ass hats from every state that travel to other states and expect the royal treatment. Ever been to Newport? NYC? Obnoxious entitled people travel to plenty of places other than NH and demand the world and complain about everything. There are many of us that travel from out of state into NH that are very appreciative of the opportunities in the state, spend our money there and expect nothing in return but the enjoyment of it. I've been going to NH for over 40 years and my perspective on issues in the state is probably far more like yours than someone from MA or CT. Tourism is a substantial part of NH revenues and out of state travelers make up a big chunk of that pie whether you like it or not. That doesn't make us all a**holes. That is just a fact of economics and is nothing special to NH.

Totally agree. Never said everyone who comes to NH is an ass hat. Nor does everyone whom leaves NH are ass hats. Just some of them.

 

[TJsName]

That is awesome....and maybe not a bad idea!

That might encourage a different kind of "gross" negligence. I am all for it.

 

[Raven]

Before we continue to pretend hikers don't spend money in NH, consider this:

Lakes of the Clouds Hut has 90 bunks. They cost $127 a night. They will be sold out Saturday night purchased 100% by hikers. That's $11,470 in ONE NIGHT at ONE HUT. There are 8 huts and many, many nights. I would guess at 8 huts on a Saturday bring in near $50,000. One night. All hikers. Cost of the beds only.

Hikers don't spend money in NH? Please. I would say they're the top spending recreation group hands down. Is there another group dropping $50k a day here? I'm happy to listen.

 

[dug]

Before we continue to pretend hikers don't spend money in NH, consider this:

Lakes of the Clouds Hut has 90 bunks. They cost $127 a night. They will be sold out Saturday night purchased 100% by hikers. That's $11,470 in ONE NIGHT at ONE HUT. There are 8 huts and many, many nights. I would guess at 8 huts on a Saturday bring in near $50,000. One night. All hikers. Cost of the beds only.

Hikers don't spend money in NH? Please. I would say they're the top spending recreation group hands down. Is there another group dropping $50k a day here? I'm happy to listen.

Skiers......

 

[JoshandBaron]

Before we continue to pretend hikers don't spend money in NH, consider this:

Lakes of the Clouds Hut has 90 bunks. They cost $127 a night. They will be sold out Saturday night purchased 100% by hikers. That's $11,470 in ONE NIGHT at ONE HUT. There are 8 huts and many, many nights. I would guess at 8 huts on a Saturday bring in near $50,000. One night. All hikers. Cost of the beds only.

Hikers don't spend money in NH? Please. I would say they're the top spending recreation group hands down. Is there another group dropping $50k a day here? I'm happy to listen.

Hunters/fishermen spend $9.5 million just on licenses. That's $25k a day 365 days a year. 100% to the state. Those huts only operate for 3-4 months and the state only sees a small percentage of that $50k.