Ice Climbers Rescued On Mt. Washington

[DougG]

The persistent practice of boldly expressing one's superiority over those suffering misadventure is an embarrassment

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No superiority here - I don't ice climb. More power to the ice climbers. BUT, these two apparently were not wise to the extent of their objective, nor the weather/wind conditions. For one to say it was a beautiful day - simply, I suppose, because of sun and blue sky, truly begs the cliche, 'clueless'. An 11:00 start time! No justification for that except for climbers highly skilled and knowledgable about the mountain and its weather.

When one barrels down a snow covered interstate highway at speeds well beyond any hint of 'reasonable', would I consider it 'misadventure' when that driver crashes and possibly takes others with them?

If you wish to climb (or drive) like that - be my guest. Just do it in a manner where there are NO witnesses.

That's not superiority..that's survival at 5000' or at sea level. To paraphrase the MWO summit manager - there are accidents and there are incidents. Bless the SAR folks.

 

[giggy]

Great points and I don't like the monday morning q-backing in front of the PC -but I have to say as someone who has been winter "non-technical" climbing/hiking for years and just started delving in technical ice climbing this year, damnation gully wouldn't even be considered in my head at this stage in the game and if it was - I would have got about a 6am start. jesus, I wouldn't even do lions head starting at 11am. call me nuts, should someone who just starting ice climbing, be on damnation? Maybe I am off, but they should have been on willys slide or something. If I am wrong and they did have more experience, I apologize. Just thinking of myself and will probably not do anything harder than a level 2 ice climb this year while still learning and nothing in huntington except the escape hatch, south gully - or maybe central on a perfect day.

I think discusions like this are good and this won't be the last rescue, but if we can learn a few things from its - its all good.

 

[afka_bob]

wait a minute...

...so you're saying that they left too late? They weren't experienced enough? They were otherwise ill-prepared? They should have listened to weather reports and known how to interpret them? They needlessly put SAR people at risk?

I'm not sure I'm getting it all yet -- could another dozen people post these points two or three times each?

 

[Grumpy]

Here's the question . . .

The question all you tongue-cluckers ought to be asking is this:

Who gets a pass from being criticized and even reviled in these incidents, and who doesn’t? What are the criteria?

Time and again, here, we see stories of searches, rescues and recoveries. Almost invariably, if the “victim” is some well know, experienced, fit-as-a-fiddle bloke with a climbing resume as long as your arm, the incident is passed along as a “tragedy” or as “unfortunate” or a matter of “bad luck” regardless of the circumstances. But if the victims happen to be less experienced or less famous with the in crowd, or less “fit” or . . . whatever, then even if they survive the episode and are able to walk out under their own power (sometimes even without an assist by SAR folks), the incident invariably is ascribed to their “stupidity” and “reckless irresponsibility.”

And let’s can the nonsensical efforts to justify criticisms by using that “SAR people being put at risk” argument, too.

The raw truth is, SAR folks who go out to look for, rescue or retrieve anybody are at risk regardless of who the victim is or what credentials he has. So if you’re going to criticize the inexperienced on that score you rightly must be ready and eager to criticize the vastly experienced who get into jams on that score, as well. To me, that seems pretty darned obvious. And I’m not all that bright.

Personally, I think there are lessons to be learned from all these incidents, regardless of who is involved. We do better by sticking to the lessons rather than doling out negative criticisms directed at individuals. It is entirely possible to dissect incidents and identify mistakes and missteps and good moves without labeling those who make them as stupid, foolish, irresponsible or heroic.

G.

 

[WildPeaks]

Wow!!!!!

It's nice to sit back (as I promised myself) & hear all the Mon. morning QB's. That's your right to speak out, but.........
I used to get upset as well at the "unnecessary" deaths I would read about: & respond as I felt, and still will exercise that freedom. But wisdom sometimes requires silent lips & open ears!

Kevin R. I agree. Well said!

The conditions up in the Whites can & will be unforgiving to the best of the best. Even you & me!

A comment on your stats.;
The further away you live & the harder it was to plan a trip, the harder it is to turn back. And w/ the ever increasing Peak Bagging........hmmmm

Thank you SAR for the job you do so well!

Tom


Kevin, Nice meeting you guys last Sat. between Starr King & Waumbek

 

[Jasonst]

If this guy was hiking Washington and mis-stepped and broke an ankle and needed SAR, would we even be having this conversation? My guess is no.

 

[jfb]

A few more details from NECLIMBS.com:

Tuesday morning two ice climbers from Connecticut (Damian McDonald and Susanna Saarkangas) were rescued from the Alpine Garden above Damnation Gully on Mt Washington. They spent a night out in sub-zero temperatures and high winds. According to their own comments, they spent the night at the Harvard Cabin on Sunday night. They left the cabin at around 11 AM Monday to climb Damnation. The leader had done the climb before, but this was to be his partner's first climb. They were unprepared to spend a night out and according to one report had neglected to check the weather prediction for the day.

They were moving extremely slow and the cabin caretaker saw them on the second pitch of the gully at around 4 PM! As they got to the top the conditions had deteriorated significantly and it was dark. They did not descend the gully because the second had never rappelled before. Unable to traverse to the Escape Hatch, they huddled by a cairn near the Nelson Crag, eventually building a small snow cave and stomping around to keep warm.

The caretaker notified the authorities that they 2 had not returned and the Snow Rangers got notification at about 10 PM. Conditions at this time were -6 and 70 mph gusts. A team of approximately 20 searchers went out at 6 AM, some up Lions Head, some into Huntington and some on the Auto Road. At this time temps were -17 and wind gusts were 80 mph with fog and blowing snow. About 9 AM the climbers were spotted above Central Gully and were found by members of the MRS and AVSAR. They were led to the Auto Road where a snowcat took them to a waiting ambulance and the hospital in Berlin where they were treated for hypothermia and frostbite. They are expected to fully recover.

 

[afka_bob]

If this guy was hiking Washington and mis-stepped and broke an ankle and needed SAR, would we even be having this conversation? My guess is no.

I think that was one of of Grumpy's points.

PS: Is the guy in your avatar checking the wind to see which side of the issue to be on?
Fly high, Eagles!

 

[dr_wu002]

Perhaps those two could have used better judgement -- we've all been in a situation like that before -- those two just happened to get unlucky. The fact that SAR was called in makes people take notice because then their lives are in jeopardy as well. But we're only debating and throwing a little criticism here and there -- I don't think anyone here is ready to publicly flog the two ice climbers. Most likely it could have been anyone of us (we've all taken a risk that we now regret, right?) and in general, if you're the one whose luck runs out, usually you're in for a lecture or something like that. The two ice climbers are probably just happy to be alive and in one piece -- they're probably happy that the SARs weren't injured either and they'll probably be a little bit more cautious next time. They probably feel regret and guilt as well, even if it was really "just a little mistake" or even an accident. If they have any type of heart or conscience they probably feel for the Search and Rescuers for the risks they had to take to save them.

We don't know all the facts but I still think it's valuable to discuss all these things amongst ourselves. We are a "hiking community" for what it's worth. But I guess it'll be up to the authorities or "the law" (or someone) to decide if indeed the ice climbers were somehow at fault. But I think that most of us, if we were to run into the ice climbers, most of us would say something like, "hey, glad you're all right," and not, "you F'ing morons, what the hell were you thinking??"

My two cents...

-Dr. Wu

 

[Jasonst]

Next time I hike Washington I'm bringin' an extra sleeping bag & a bivy in case of an accident, lest I be roasted on VFTT for not being prepared!! (little humor)

PS: Is the guy in your avatar checking the wind to see which side of the issue to be on?
Fly high, Eagles!

Yeah right, the EAGLES. Once again, I DONT agree with AFKA_BOB!!!

 

[Tramper Al]

Amongst ourselves

We don't know all the facts but I still think it's valuable to discuss all these things amongst ourselves.

OK, but remember we aren't 'discussing amongst ourselves', but very much in public. It has not been uncommon at all for some of these accident victims or their surviving friends or loved ones (in the case of death) to eventually come along and read what has been written. That's where everything written here comes to reflect on us as a community. The mudslinging in this thread has been pretty mild, actually, compared some of the others that have appeared in these pages in the past.

 

[spencer]

Our info here has even been known to work it's way into print... (e.g. newspapers, and perhaps more relevantly, the Accidents section of Appalachia)...

spencer

 

[dr_wu002]

OK, but remember we aren't 'discussing amongst ourselves', but very much in public. It has not been uncommon at all for some of these accident victims or their surviving friends or loved ones (in the case of death) to eventually come along and read what has been written. That's where everything written here comes to reflect on us as a community. The mudslinging in this thread has been pretty mild, actually, compared some of the others that have appeared in these pages in the past.

It is, but I still think it's valuable to talk about it and make some sense of the issue. The first thing I thought when I read the report was, "oh, those F'ing idiots!!" (ref to: the ice climbers) but after reading this thread I found myself contemplating the incident more. Mudslinging is bound to happen -- it's nice when things can remain cordial -- but I think all of us should be mature enough to realize that each post is still just one person's opinion.

I'm glad this topic hasn't degenerated into name calling.

I did get a nasty PM from someone on VFTT recently -- but then I realized that I in fact sent it to myself. Doh!

-Dr. Wu

 

[afka_bob]

Yeah right, the EAGLES. Once again, I DONT agree with AFKA_BOB!!!

Can't help myself, '55 and '56 All-Star end Norm "Wild Man" Willey was a teacher of mine in high school, which was 30 miles south of Philadelphia.

 

[Warren]

I've found that the "rescued" topics tend contain a degree of lack respect for those who are rescued, in trouble, ect. I'm not going to touch upon the why of that.

I will advise that everyone check out a copy of "Accidents in North American Mountaineering". Why? Not only does it illustrate the value of a post incident analysis (by a ranger or victim or SAR personnel) it also shows that you can write and comment about such incidents without disrespect for the victims of such incidents.

 

[Bill40]

I was dressed to the nines for Algonquin last Sunday. Koflach boots, 3 thick layers top and botton, shell, mask, goggle, extra ear protection; I was a little oven. The wind was 50-70 mph, temperature was about 0 (before wind chill). I went up over the top and had a crampon break on the way down Algonquin towards Iroquois. Due to ice; I had to try to repair the crampon. Visibility shrank to about 20 feet and my paws were frozen solid by the time I had the crampon back on. I felt thoroughly chilled within, but still fine. I decided to return and forego Iroquois for another day. Just back over the top, again my crampon came off; broken. By now, only 15 minutes after the first stop, I was thoroughly chilled and my hands were immoble. I strapped on one snow shoe; picked up my stuff and literally ran for the tree line. I was in tough shape when I got to the tree line. I ripped out a 3 heat packs for my hands, strapped everything down, and took off. I was fine in 30 minutes. The whole ordeal lasted about 45 minutes; but it is so amazing how fast things deteriorate in such conditions.

It doesn't take much to disable you on a mountain; and those two folks spent the night and are fine. What's with all the stones thrown at them. If they weren't prepared, they never would have made it through the night!

 

[Jasonst]

It doesn't take much to disable you on a mountain; and those two folks spent the night and are fine. What's with all the stones thrown at them. If they weren't prepared, they never would have made it through the night!

UHH... The dude doesn't have a nose left... Please read the other posts on the thread in order to gain perspective on the argument on the thread.

 

[afka_bob]

(jumping in again, Jason, in case you were wondering)

UHH... The dude doesn't have a nose left...

It must be true, I read it on the internet.

I missed the reports that he had or would lose his nose. When I had a bit of frostbite, my doctor told me that it had to be treated aggressively and I could lose a toe, but later, when I still had all ten, he told me that frostbite -- properly treated -- in his experience nearly always turns out better than it looks it will at first.

 

[Maddy]

It is, but I still think it's valuable to talk about it and make some sense of the issue. The first thing I thought when I read the report was, "oh, those F'ing idiots!!" (ref to: the ice climbers) but after reading this thread I found myself contemplating the incident more. Mudslinging is bound to happen -- it's nice when things can remain cordial -- but I think all of us should be mature enough to realize that each post is still just one person's opinion.
-Dr. Wu

JUST A THOUGHT....I like all the posts on this topic. I find them very "educational" and some are quite humerous.
I think that most of us have learned something from our own mistakes and from reading about those less fortunate.
As recently as August I came very close to needing a rescue because of my own carelessness. My friend and I laugh about this incident frequently, not because we think it was a big joke, but rather because we still can't believe we could have been so stupid!!! We certainly weren't laughing when it happened. I was greatly humbled by the event but still try to maintain a sense of humor.
I think sometimes we laugh at stuff that isn't all that funny, or we make silly comments because deep down we all know we could have been the big BOZO needing the rescue. In fact we are all still hikers who could potentially need to be evac'd out of some big mess caused by our own errors in judgment. Rob Hall and Scott Fisher losing their lives on their ill fated expedition to Everest are classic examples.
I read some of your posts and I laugh but i†'s because I've been there and know that I could have easily done the same thing. I'm not laughing at the victims misfortune but rather at how dumb I was and how I can still make some serious errors in spite of all the knowledge I have acquired over the years.
It wasn't so very long ago that my friend and I stood in the dark on the summit of Mt Cardigan unable to find the trail down in frigid cold temps and two feet of new snow. Had climbed that peak countless times in the summer. Never gave start times and turn around times a second thought. Completely clueless. I sure do pay close attention to the clock now.
There is little doubt in my mind that had I not summited the Rockpile via the Cog the very first time and spoken to the ranger on the summit I would most likely be forever memorialized on the "Deaths on Mt. W" board in the Observatory. I was invicible then and there wasn't much that I would not have taken on. Those warning signs about " above treeline travel" were not meant for me. They were for the old folks!
The "Everest" post was the best. It brought to mind the day my friend and I walked into a mountaineering store and asked the salesperson what we would need to summit Denali and did they have a map??? He couldn't speak for about*ten minutes. We left there with second thoughts about how we were going to spend our upcoming vacation.
I love SAR. If I were younger I would try to sign up. IMHO they are the best.
TOP DOGS!!! Thanks to all who risk their lives for us.

 

[tonycc]

(with tail between my legs...)

My comment was directed at the apparent total lack of realization of what caused the incident expressed by the one victim in the newspaper article. I have a big hot button about people who fail to take personal responsibility and consider themselves a helpless victim when something happens to them. However, I did forget that newspaper articles frequently take statements out of context and give completely false impressions of the facts. I do not know the actual facts of the incident, nor the actual thoughts of the victims.

As far whether any of us should ever criticize, I'm not sure where I stand. If public flogging for a stupid act is a known reality, maybe, just maybe, it could be one more factor to drive someone to think again. For me, some of my decisions in life are made with considerations like this in mind. Additionally, it sometimes take the brutal honesty of strangers and friends to point out the mistakes that could have been avoided. I have always appreciated the message every time I've done something stupid (who hasn't done many stupid things), even if I haven't always appreciated the manner the message was delivered. 20/20 hindsight is the next best thing to good foresight, sometimes it takes someone loaning you their glasses to be able to achieve it.

Tony