moose antler; leave it or keep it?

[VFTTop'r]

Does LNT apply to non-natural things like railroad parts, building materials and other remnants of industry in the woods?

It all depends on who writes the rules.

As far as the wallet goes....If it had no id and did have greenish documents saying something like "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE"
then I would definitely not leave it for others to enjoy.

 

[jjmcgo]

WMNF Rules

This is from the White Mountains National Forest Backcountry camping rules, in a list of restrictions:
"Leave What You Find

Plants, animals, and cultural artifacts should all be left for the next person to enjoy."

The only thing you are permitted to take out of the WMNF is yourself.

 

[VFTTop'r]

Then I guess we will have to obey the rules.

 

[Neil]

I think the original question about antlers was probably talking about a slightly higher (foot, if not train) -traffic area.

Which of course is why there has to be all kinds of (seemingly arcane) rules. Not for you or me of course but for all those turkeys out there.

Now, lets talk about mud.

 

[mavs00]

This is from the White Mountains National Forest Backcountry camping rules, in a list of restrictions:
"Leave What You Find

Plants, animals, and cultural artifacts should all be left for the next person to enjoy."

The only thing you are permitted to take out of the WMNF is yourself.

"gee officer, but I wasn't camping, I was HIKING so camping rules don't apply to me" .

I can't believe there are 5+ pages of discussion on this, so I feel I have to add to the drivel. Not so much about antlers, but....... One time I was bushwhacking through the woods and came upon a bunch of old vintage style bottles and pans and stuff, in what looked like an 80-100 year old lumber camp. Totally awesome, historical artifacts from days gone by. A unique and fascinating peak into another world........

Hmmmmmm, wait a minute, are these really artifacts?????? Or did some fat, inconsiderate lumberjack just forget to "pack out his crap" after a night of drinking in the backcountry back in 1910 . Fear not my "brothers in arms" in the war on ecological terror. I did what all good soldiers should, I packed them out for him. Not wanting them to go to waste I sold them on eBay for money to renew my ADK membership.

Okay, so I made that up (not the finding part though), but the point remains, if you argue it long enough, Artifacts can become little more than refuse. Refuse, if you wait long enough, will become artifacts. My view antlers as biological refuse. I'd never pack them out if I found them, but not out of any moral obligation, but simply cause "what the hell would I do with it" once I got them out. If I wanted to collect discarded bones, I start saving my used chicken wing bones and my collection would grow much quicker.

 

[Tim Seaver]

Plants, animals, and cultural artifacts should all be left for the next person to enjoy

Not to quibble, but a discarded antler doesn't seem to fit into any of those categories.

 

[SherpaKroto]

Thanks Tim!

 

[Jasonst]

The only thing you are permitted to take out of the WMNF is yourself.

I guess I am in big trouble because I have taken HUNDREDS of pictures!

 

[Stan]

I can't believe there are 5+ pages of discussion on this, so I feel I have to add to the drivel.

Keep in mind it's mud season in a lot of places ...

 

[arghman]

Keep in mind it's mud season in a lot of places ...

Yeah, and there's no more maple sap to sit and watch boil away, now that we have this @#$@#$ warm spell..., I'll just have to waste some time on the Internet instead

If you don't get the antler, the mice will. To each his own level of LNT, the point is that you're at least thinking about it.

 

[sierra]

I have an "outdoor Alter" set up in my apartment. It has about 7 shelves containing many "things" I have gathered on my climbs throughout the country, including, summit rocks, pieces of tree's, moss, sticks covered with lichen, a metal spatula (pemi)pinecones and many antlers. While some may dissagree with this sort of collecting I think the resources of the backcountry are no less for my collecting and when I home, I get much enjoyment out of all my pieces and the memories of those climb/hikes. AS far as LNT I think thats an overated term used by urbanites, not that Im against it but it is pushed to far, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with takeing antlers from the woods, imo.

 

[giggy]

holy jesus - are people actually saying taking some friggin moose antlers violates LNT ethics?? - ya got to be kiddin' - come on have some common sense here.

take the damn antlers

LNT is out of control when it gets to this level.


sherpa - your going to LNT hell for having those antlers.

 

[Warren]

OK, I'll let myself get dragged into this:

1. Sherpa has had a party and (proudly) showed off his antlers. I know, I was there.

2. The "if I don't do it someone else will" is a dodge. "If I don't leave toilet paper roses above treeline someone else will".

3. Leave no Trace is an evolving ethic. The ridicule on this thread to LNT has been directed towards tent trenching, fires, burying garbage and cutting bough beds in the past.

4. Uh, ridicule on a question like this is also very likely a dodge. It's much easier to poke fun at an idea than to confront it, think about it and consider all the implications.

5. LNT, IMO, is intended to do just that, make you think about what you are doing.

6. To those thinking of those who may pass after you, your consideration for others is to be commended.

7. LNT varies by region. Just try to justify thinly spreading feces over a sunny rock in the NE. Elsewhere this is acceptable LNT behavior.

8. There are rules and regs, follow them or not as you will. LNT has little to do with rules and regs, to some it's a guideline, to others an intrusion, to yet others a belief system that could be compared to a religion (can I use that word?).

9. Ask yourself: If I haul out x .lbs of antler/rocks/whatever that I find will I as readily haul out x .lbs of used toilet paper, discarded tarp or old cans? If not, why?

10. There is no 10.

 

[twigeater]

My answer to #9 is yes. I have a question about #2 - did anyone actually say (post) that? or was that an if/then assumption?
When I used to organize trips that internet people came on, I'd link to the LNT website in the trip description. I was surprised about some things I saw happen on the trail.

Like sierra, I have shelves of treasures from the outdoors - some I probably shouldn't have - but I'd love to add a moose antler to the collection.

Lugging an antler out of the woods doesn't even compare to say...leaving TP roses, bathing in the water with soap, throwing baby wipes and other non-paper trash down the outhouse (for someone else to pick out), trampling vegetation...

Let's talk apples and oranges...
I DO throw apple cores into the woods out of sight, not in camp
I DO NOT throw orange peels into the woods

I think this is okay - apple cores are quickly composted or eaten, and I don't worry about introducing a non native species via the seeds because of Maine's climate - but orange peels seem to live forever.

How many complain about Baxter Park's rules? Just basic LNT and common sense...

The idea that one who lugs an antler out disrespects other hikers, woods critters, the environment, LNT, etc., is ridiculous.

Two more of my cents...

 

[SherpaKroto]

Warren, don't understand the intent of your reference (slam?) to my antlers. I already stated that I collect antlers. To me, it's still no big deal. Of the 20 or so antlers I have found (I kept 3), all but one was found on a bushwhack, or while hunting. I find it hard to believe that Moose only shed their antlers off trail.

Ok all you fisherman. I don't want to see you taking any fish home. It will ruin my chances of catching/seeing them later.

Thanks Twig! Nice to hear more common sense. I think exactly as you do about apples and oranges (and do exactly the same)

 

[VFTTop'r]

OK, I'll let myself get dragged into this:

1. Sherpa has had a party and (proudly) showed off his antlers. I know, I was there.

2. The "if I don't do it someone else will" is a dodge. "If I don't leave toilet paper roses above treeline someone else will".

3. Leave no Trace is an evolving ethic. The ridicule on this thread to LNT has been directed towards tent trenching, fires, burying garbage and cutting bough beds in the past.

4. Uh, ridicule on a question like this is also very likely a dodge. It's much easier to poke fun at an idea than to confront it, think about it and consider all the implications.

5. LNT, IMO, is intended to do just that, make you think about what you are doing.

6. To those thinking of those who may pass after you, your consideration for others is to be commended.

7. LNT varies by region. Just try to justify thinly spreading feces over a sunny rock in the NE. Elsewhere this is acceptable LNT behavior.
8. There are rules and regs, follow them or not as you will. LNT has little to do with rules and regs, to some it's a guideline, to others an intrusion, to yet others a belief system that could be compared to a religion (can I use that word?).

9. Ask yourself: If I haul out x .lbs of antler/rocks/whatever that I find will I as readily haul out x .lbs of used toilet paper, discarded tarp or old cans? If not, why?

10. There is no 10.

Ok clue me in to this one... #7 ...where ("Elsewhere this is acceptable") does this take place?

 

[Warren]

Sherpa, it wasn't meant as a slam. Earlier in the thread someone commented you'd have to have a party and show it and damn you did have a party and you did show it. Personally I thought it was a cool antler. For the record, I have deer skull (taken to use as a subject for a drawing, the sinus cavities is an amazing set of shapes and forms), a walking stick, and an antler (intended to be made into scales for a knife). I didn't think much about these but aside from the stick they were all taken off private land so the rules/regs/LNT stuff gets really blurred in these cases.

I'm not comparing leaving toilette paper to another (debatable) LNT transgression, but trying to point out the fault of arguing "If I don't someone else will". Such logic can be used justify about anything. I do believe the "if you don't do it someone else will" statement was mentioned earlier in the thread.

On #7: NOLS has used this technique in expedition to Alaska, I believe it's used in desert environments (both from stuff I've read) and it was taught to me as part of a mountaineering course in the Cascades.

 

[ChrisB]

Do Antlers = Trash?

Hey,

Sherp, if you are into antlers, ski Jackson Hole WY.

In the center of town each year they build a 15-foot high pile of Elk antlers.

I think they are collected by the local Boy Scouts as part of a clean the woods, LNT initiative.

Freak'n Elk leave em all over the place!

cb

 

[VFTTop'r]

Sherpa (et all),


As for LNT in general, I think the evolving opinion (or the one starting to come through in the last few posts) is the right one. For you LNT nazies out there, there is only ONE way to truely LNT, and that's to stay the hell out of the woods. Everytime you enter it, there will be some impact and evvidence of your passing (no matter how small).

Excellent point! The only problem is if/when the PC LNT Nazis convert their extreme evolving opinion into law is what bothers me!

 

[Jasonst]

Hey,

Sherp, if you are into antlers, ski Jackson Hole WY.

In the center of town each year they build a 15-foot high pile of Elk antlers.

I think they are collected by the local Boy Scouts as part of a clean the woods, LNT initiative.

Freak'n Elk leave em all over the place!

cb

What a riot! I can't imagine what they would think if they saw this discussion...