More trail closings?

[maineguy]

So, if I interpret this correctly: it doesn't matter how one enters the WMNF (a trail on private property, or being dropped off by someone so as not to park at a trailhead), it is illegal to be in the WMNF during this time -- correct?

I interpret "area" to mean the trailhead, unless otherwise specifically noted, like the Tuckerman area. If some trailheads are open, it cannot mean the order is meant to restrict all access to the WMNF. You have to wonder what kind of "thought" went into this order. Probably the same kind that went into the decisions to remove the Pemi bridges.

 

[Mike P.]

I interpret "area" to mean the trailhead, unless otherwise specifically noted, like the Tuckerman area. If some trailheads are open, it cannot mean the order is meant to restrict all access to the WMNF. You have to wonder what kind of "thought" went into this order. Probably the same kind that went into the decisions to remove the Pemi bridges.

Okay, I need a biting my tongue emoji. USFS is doing their best to define local. Local is not all cars from your state, it's not places you can drive to and back on a tank of gas, it's not places you can drive to. (Yes the 48 States, Canada, Mexico & Alaska are all walkable with enough time) It's geared toward trailheads because they can't chase people through 770,000 sq. miles of National Forest. It doesn't include F-Notch because they don't control those lots, surprised the State of NH hasn't closed. Can they block a few lots, yes. Can they tow vehicles, you bet. If you've ever had your car towed because you were parked illegally, you know that sucks. I doubt they can monitor all the lots on any single day. You might get lucky one day & park at the Blank Blank lot on Saturday without an incident, tomorrow your car may be towed 30 miles to a garage. If you get out of the woods and the garage is closed, you got problems. Local may now mean, if your car gets towed and the garage is closed at 6:00 PM when you get out of the woods, can you walk home?

 

[maineguy]

: :

Okay, I need a biting my tongue emoji. USFS is doing their best to define local. Local is not all cars from your state, it's not places you can drive to and back on a tank of gas, it's not places you can drive to. (Yes the 48 States, Canada, Mexico & Alaska are all walkable with enough time) It's geared toward trailheads because they can't chase people through 770,000 sq. miles of National Forest. It doesn't include F-Notch because they don't control those lots, surprised the State of NH hasn't closed. Can they block a few lots, yes. Can they tow vehicles, you bet. If you've ever had your car towed because you were parked illegally, you know that sucks. I doubt they can monitor all the lots on any single day. You might get lucky one day & park at the Blank Blank lot on Saturday without an incident, tomorrow your car may be towed 30 miles to a garage. If you get out of the woods and the garage is closed, you got problems. Local may now mean, if your car gets towed and the garage is closed at 6:00 PM when you get out of the woods, can you walk home?

I need a "no S&^%$#@T" emoji: I know what they are trying to do. If they are trying to get people to stay at home, then just shut all trailheads, facilities, etc and be done with it. I don't see it as their job to try to selectively enforce an order from the state of NH. I mean, let's get real. Criminals are being let out of jail, and civilians are being told to stay home

And it's hard to comply with because Americans aren't used to just taking orders from the government without some kind of explanation, and one that makes some sense to them. And don't just believe the experts. Just look at some of the statistics from this virus and then look at the models that predicted wildly different things.

 

[ChrisB]

It's the old battle between the spirit of a rule and the letter of a rule. Anyone who codes can appreciate how hard it is to get the letter of the rule perfect, as it often include creating definitions, which creates exceptions, and pretty soon you're wasting a lot of time with semantics. Like when a mom tells her kid to 'go outside' and the kid crawls through a window because 'You didn't say how!', when using the door should have been obvious, yet it wasn't explicit. So, I sympathize with someone trying to write these orders, so long as they are trying and competent.

Aw come on!!

There are active Stay at Home orders in all New England states.

So by just showing up in the Whites hikers are violating a simple request to satisfy their need to "recreate."

It does not matter if you think you can effectively social distance on the trail or not. All you've been asked to do is limit your mobility and recreate locally for a few weeks to help contain a killer virus. Why is that so freakin hard to comply with?

How many stories of intubation, weird blood clotting, non-symptomatic spreaders and death do we need to read before we take it all seriously?

If you need another one: check out this 40-year-old Maine-based Marine survival instructor. He made it through several tours in Iraq and Afghanistan before his almost fatal fight with this virus.

 

[Mike P.]

It does not matter if you think you can effectively social distance on the trail or not. All you've been asked to do is limit your mobility and recreate locally for a few weeks to help contain a killer virus. Why is that so freakin hard to comply with?

Right, seems some are quick to judge other people's "local" but not their own. Most if not all of us know what they mean, yet even here, people in this thread or other thread have wanted to define local as something they can do. (No stops for gas from home to trailhead, in-state but still several miles, etc.) I wish we were all driving, my portfolio is too heavily invested in the Oil Patch. I'm driving to stores outside of my town because my local store has no frozen peas & I'm still under 200 miles for the month, it's usually over 1000 and close to 2000 if their is a White Mountain or ADK trip.

What's incredibly troublesome with this bug is that for every Marine or Service man on a Carrier that are in peak shape yet still severely hit or killed by this, there are many who seemingly have few or no signs of infection. NY State is finding people who have antibodies who were asymptomatic. There could be 1000's of Covid-19 Charlie's (Typhoid Mary has been used - 10's of thousands worldwide) walking around just fine and if they see their relatives or co-workers and spread it to them, they wouldn't even know it until that person or a person in that person's family or further downstream became ill. Certainly being younger and fit is better than being frail with other conditions, however, some of the conditions people have do not seem to manifest themselves in their normal day to day life before Covid-19 until it is combined with Covid-19and the combination is either fatal or if not fatal life altering.

I don't know how bars and restaurants open up with like they were before. A crowded sports bar sounds like a breeding ground for Covid-19

 

[dailey7779]

I went to Appalachia today. When I arrived at 7:30AM there were about six other cars. Lot was full but not overflowing at 12:30PM when I left. 9 cars from MA, one from RI, and a couple from VT and ME. On the way up I saw three guys early on in jeans and sneakers who turned around within a mile. Ran into six hikers above treeline, a group of four who knew their stuff, and two solo hikers who most likely were not local from the absurd questions they asked me. On the way down I ran into one seasoned hiker and then two different groups of four who had no right being on the mountain.

Over the past month I had been hiking Imp, Pine Mountain, Moriah, and in the Great Gulf. Had a nice little routine going with my dog, can't drive to 3/4 of those anymore, luckily no matter what I can walk to Moriah if more lot closures happen.

I'm not surprised of the closures but I'm pretty furious about the people I've observed over FB, IG, and Strava who just couldn't hike or run local during this time. This time a year I start craving dry trails to run instead of the rotting snow, but you don't see me heading to the Belknaps or Monadnock as it's not local to me, I stayed local and now those close ones are taken away from me. So, yeah I'm pissed off a little right now at people.

 

[Salty]

I had to go in to work today (Manchester) and I am not kidding that at 11:00, at least 1/4 of the cars heading north on 93 had Mass. plates on them. And there was a fair bit of traffic heading that way.

 

[Mike P.]

I went to Appalachia today. When I arrived at 7:30AM there were about six other cars. Lot was full but not overflowing at 12:30PM when I left. 9 cars from MA, one from RI, and a couple from VT and ME. On the way up I saw three guys early on in jeans and sneakers who turned around within a mile. Ran into six hikers above treeline, a group of four who knew their stuff, and two solo hikers who most likely were not local from the absurd questions they asked me. On the way down I ran into one seasoned hiker and then two different groups of four who had no right being on the mountain.

How can you do that! Since I'm staying put adding significance to a tiny parcel of land in my town I've been hiking several times a week, like it's the divide between the Deep River Reservoir/Yantic River Thames Watershed and the Jeremy River/Salmon River, CT River Watershed... What were the absurd questions!

If we went back in time could we persuade Zuckerburg to do something else. FB is not an advance in society,...… (where is that biting my tongue emoji) Not everyone from one of those states deserve the nickname they have when driving, however how did nine hikers, more if they car pooled figure out Appalachia is local to their state? I'm not sure it's local to Gorham, I'd hate riding my bike by the hill on Route 2 to get there.

I hope they are peakbaggers, won't they be in for a surprise when they submit their paperwork.

 

[Mike P.]

Interestingly, I see more people jogging and walking around my neighborhood, so people are staying local. I'd also tell you that the people I see in my neighborhood are more likely to have a pre-existing condition, but the road is wide so it's not an issue.

 

[dailey7779]

"What were the absurd questions!"

- Is there usually no wind like today, and I didn't think I need snowshoes for Valley Way.

"I'm not sure it's local to Gorham, I'd hate riding my bike by the hill on Route 2 to get there."


Don't need to, can ride the rail trail to Randolph East from my house in 8.5 miles or bushwhack and use the snomo trail across the river in the woods and Pinkham B Road and get there in less than that.

 

[Mike P.]

"What were the absurd questions!"

- Is there usually no wind like today, and I didn't think I need snowshoes for Valley Way.

"I'm not sure it's local to Gorham, I'd hate riding my bike by the hill on Route 2 to get there."


Don't need to, can ride the rail trail to Randolph East from my house in 8.5 miles or bushwhack and use the snomo trail across the river in the woods and Pinkham B Road and get there in less than that.

Spoken like a true local. Here, I've hiked all winter in sneakers. Only wore boots the week I was in NH, just before our Gov. signed the shelter in place order.

 

[peakbagger]

IMHO I do not think this was a well thought out or deployed policy. The FS claims on WMUR that these restrictions would be in place in lock step with the State of NH and the restrictions will cease once NH opens up for business (May 6th currently). There was also a subsequent statement by the FS that the orders do not mean what they say and that if someone could walk to a trailhead then the prohibition does not apply. So Dailey is covered for several trailheads on his side of Gorham. Note part of the rail trail washed out at some point this spring just east of the beaver pond. When I took a walk last week they had done some repairs but there was a very large hole to be avoided with a tree blocking the hole. It may be non issue now as there has been repair equipment working on the rail trail . I on the other hand have access to all the RMC trailheads or just a short walk and I am on the Church Path which give me access to "local" trail network that few out of town folks visit unless they are relining.

If the FS is in lockstep with NH then why are the state of NH owned trailheads still open?

 

[DayTrip]

I know you have had a conversation on another posting about staying at home--which many of us believe is needed to prevent the spread of the pandemic--so I will just answer your question and leave it at that: The goal is to leave hikers no options so they stay at home.

Well plenty of people are obviously not doing that, and now they'll be crammed into a hand full of already popular lots. If that is their goal they should just close everything and be done with it instead of screwing around with all these idiotic phases of closures. This is total nonsense.

 

[DayTrip]

I'm not surprised of the closures but I'm pretty furious about the people I've observed over FB, IG, and Strava who just couldn't hike or run local during this time.

This is an easy statement to make for someone who lives in the Whites and enjoys the caliber of "local" hikes you have. I live in CT and have been staying local and I can tell you it is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME THING. Not even close. So I totally get why people go there. I'm not doing it, I realize it is irresponsible, but I also I miss it like hell. That is like saying "just eat the food you have and be happy" when you have a pile of filet mignon and lobster and I have stale boxes of corn flakes. The "same" is not "equal".

 

[rocket21]

I disagree with the Forest Service's decision and fear it will create more problems.

 

[NHClimber]

What part of stay at home do people not comprehend? We might not like it, but that is the order most of us are under. To me, that means you do not leave your house other than for essential needs, which does not encompass recreational activities despite the mental and physical benefits thereof. So all this trail head closure/non-closure debate is irrelevant. Anyone heading outside is basically saying I don’t agree with the govt’s order and I will not obey. Let’s just call it what it is.

 

[Early Bird]

We have a stay at home order not a shelter in place.
https://www.nhpr.org/post/gov-sununu-answers-questions-stay-home-order
At least at this date, hiking was encouraged and the ability to social distance on trails was supported.
I keep telling myself I shouldn't let this get to me because I can also walk to some trails, and am grateful for that but it does. Selective closing of trails some of which I've recently been to without incident doesnt make sense.Yes out of state cars were there, but hiking groups were small 1-3 and kept their distance. Meanwhile videos of mt. major yesterday show lines of cars on either side for minutes of travel. Same as I noticed hiking from ferncroft last month which is now closed and did not have that issue.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Here is the actual order from Governor Sununu:

https://www.nhpr.org/sites/nhpr/files/202003/StayAtHome_emergency-order-17-1.pdf

and the relevant snippit:


4. Beginning at 11:59 p.m. on March 27, 2020, New Hampshire citizens shall stay at home
or in their place of residence with the following exceptions:
a) Leaving home to get fresh air or exercise, provided that social distancing
protocols consistent with guidance from the Division of Public Health are
observed;
b) Leaving home for outdoor recreation provided that appropriate social distancing
protocols are observed and provided that such recreation complies with any
limitations contained within Executive Order 2020-04 and any Emergency
Orders issued pursuant to Executive Order 2020-04;


BTW, it has been extended to May 15

Tim

 

[richard]

I’ve been pretty much hiking fairly close to home. I go early and try to find little used trails that I’ve found in the past. I also try to hike on these trails on weekdays as opposed to weekends. Usually when I arrive the parking areas are sparse, but when I return they’re packed. Generally I don’t see too many others and most of those seem to have the same thinking as me.(a polite hello while keeping a distance). I like to go for road walks around my neighborhood on weekends. Most others on the roads have the same attitude. I understand that I have it easier than most because I’m retired. I actually don’t have much of an issue with these circumstances anyway because I’ve been “social distancing” for quite a while ! !

 

[TCD]

Like some others, I have it very easy. I live in the Adirondacks, I'm retired, and I prefer to bushwhack. So this situation has not really changed my hiking at all.

There is obviously a conflict in NH between the Governor's order and the USFS order; it does not sound like this is all well thought out, and I think the USFS order will backfire and resulting in more crowding together of people. I would expect to see more changes in the next couple weeks as the outcomes become visible.

One thing that may come out of this is that more folks will take the plunge into off-trail travel. I hope everyone is careful. This might be a great time for guide services and outfitters (if they are allowed to) to start offering one-on-one land navigation training...