Musings about the Highland center

[Mike P.]

One thought on croos before I rant some - not a rant like before......

Not trying to excuse bad behavior like rudeness & arrogance but most of the croos are made up of college age kids, some of their behavior may be due to a lack of polished social skills. I've seen some great croo members, I've also seen some who did their jobs well but socializing with guest of visitors was not something they were good at. (maybe they thought working at a hut was going to provide them with a summer of hiking - not backwoods hotel management - seeing the guest have fun doing what they wanted to do probably plays havoc with their mood

Now for my recent - today's experience....

We all make choices about how much to spend. I got the surprise spousal email that perhaps last minute the family is going up next weekend, so Hiker's Paradise is out as an option.

I'm checking Cyberrentals, North Conway, RCI, & some type of 1 day in a hotel with a pool/slide & 1 day at Conway Hostel. Checked into availablity at the HC. For an indivial member, two kids & a non-member spouse, I'm looking at the same rate as nice condo or a North Conway hotel with lots of creature comforts.

Can I afford it, yes, if I choose to & could stay a lot if I cut some other things out (trying to get more $ into 529's, Stock Market, I like eating out, etc) but for the same price, I'm leaning towards other places. If the weather is bad, Dad can still go out in the weather. In good weather, the rest of the family, might do their first snowshoe trip & hang around outside. If it's bad, their trapped indoors, the notch in a storm is no place for most 5 year olds to go out & play for a couple of hours.

We make choices, for newer hikers with a decent disposable income, this is a good idea, stayiong at HC doing AMC led hikes out of of HC or PNVC. (I should check JDL for space too) If anything you can meet a member of a chapter who can recommend a leader doing free chapter hikes. As a newbie, hooking up with a stranger from a website, could be daunting. Will Mike P. show up if it rains, do I want to go if it rains, is Chomp a summit or die type, will bikehikeskifish cross dangerous streams, if one cloud shows up will giggy turn tail? if your new to this, these are questions you don't know.

(I hope AMC trips err on the side of caution, I don't really recall hearing about a chapter led trip that required a SAR - a few adventures maybe like a 26 hour day hike to the Bonds - I don't know if that trip was an AMC trip or just a group with Mo in it)

Whether you sleep under a tarp, a tent, in a yurt, lean-to, a rustic cabin, a nicely furnished cottage, a motel room, hostel or a condo, there's room for all of us.

I wonder if there's any correlation between those who don't seem to want to pay for expensive cushy accomodations or share the woods with their guests & those who get all bent out of shape if there's a posthole on the trail.

It might make an interesting poll question. My feeling is that the more hardcore types (tents, too many newbies in the woods, real men rough it, etc...) complain more about postholes. The newbies don't know that any discrepanies or bump in the snowshoe tract is evil. That would seem oxymoronic to me but I'm curious

What I've learned this morning: In a couple of years it looks like it may make sense to move my membership to Family - more for the backcountry huts - during caretaker season but not today - now back to cyberrentals.com....)

 

[Tim Seaver]

The facility seems to be mostly a conference center in an outdoor setting, rather than a base for outdoor activies. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's an entirely different focus than Pinkham.

Given it's location and history, that certainly is a matter of opinion, but it sure isn't a fact. All that square footage devoted to upscale motel snobbery and not even a modest pack room?

Please - it's an insult to hikers. The AMC should be a bit more careful about who they alienate with that kind of indifference.

 

[sierra]

Good, plentiful, not cheap, breakfast. Clean bathroom. Cold beer. Warm fireplace. I've spread my gear out by the fireplace. It is what it is. I've never understood the mentality that the AMC owes us something.

Just for the record, I in no way feel the AMC owes me something. I was just noting an interesting comparison between the 2 facilities ( pinkham and Highland). To be honest, my motive was not to bash the AMC, heck they have the right to run the club the way they want.
Many of the comments where interesting, you know, I'm not that confused when it comes to the AMC. While they are a mountain climbing club, they have always catered to the upper end of social climbers and that is a fact. Try this experiment, when driving in the mountains and you see a AMC sticker on a car window, look at the occupants. Ill save you the time, 50 to 60, and they dont look like climbers at all, its a social club mostly.
LIke all things in life, you take the good and leave the bad, I get 2 things out of the Highland, bathrooms and coffee, those who get more all the power to you.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

they dont look like climbers at all, its a social club mostly.

I had a girlfriend a long time ago who met her future husband through the AMC. When I knew her, she (and her perfect, long fingernails) were a card-carrying member of the CPC - Couch Potato Club.

I'm not really sure what all the fuss is. I've gotten water at a hut or two, and otherwise visited huts "because they were there" (hut bagging?) I don't care about, take advantage of, or otherwise acknowledge either PNVC or HC. Maybe I am missing something, but I sure don't feel like I am.

What really annoys me is having to pay for parking at WMNF lots which don't have any toilet or aren't properly plowed. THAT is worth getting annoyed about.

Tim

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...What really annoys me is having to pay for parking at WMNF lots which don't have any toilet or aren't properly plowed. THAT is worth getting annoyed about. Tim

As far as I know, it the WMNF which is responsible for toilets, and the NH DOT who plows the lots. NH is one of the few states which understands the economic impact winter hiking provides to state coffers.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

As far as I know, it the WMNF which is responsible for toilets, and the NH DOT who plows the lots. NH is one of the few states which understands the economic impact winter hiking provides to state coffers.

I don't care who plows it - I care that it is plowed. If I pay you, Kevin Rooney, for a service, and you sub it out, and I don't approve, then I come to you, Kevin Rooney, with complaints or legal action.

Most of the time, the winter lots are passable. NH in general does a most outstanding job with their roads - maintaining them, plowing them, paving them, etc. (unlike Massachusetts)


Tim

 

[Chip]

I wasn't trying to pick on you in particular (although if you read your first post, it does sound like you were complaining a bit). I just know how these discussions go.

While they are a mountain climbing club, they have always catered to the upper end of social climbers and that is a fact. Try this experiment, when driving in the mountains and you see a AMC sticker on a car window, look at the occupants. Ill save you the time, 50 to 60, and they dont look like climbers at all, its a social club mostly.

It's always a bit dangerous to generalize. I'm a member and have an AMC sticker on my car . One of the reasons I've remained a member is that the AMC has a very active group of rock, indoor and ice climbers here in CT. This group is out there doing something 3 days a week. I've gotten some excellent (FREE !!!) instruction from this group in climbing, anchor building and self rescue. If I may be so bold as to generalize; if 50 to 60 year old members don't "climb" they're certainly helping to support an infrastructure many non-members use, take for granted and/or feel entitled to use without being a member. I don't care if "you're" a member or not, but it bothers me a bit when non members bash "the club" and then plan on the huts availability to use the toilet, warm up and refill their water.

There has been a lot of good info here from both sides. Can't we all just get along ?

 

[Chip]

I'll add this also: I find it a bit ironic that the HC is right down the road from Bretton Woods, several high end condo complexes, restaurants and The Mt Washington and no one is complaining about who those businesses are catering to. I realize there's a difference, but it's not that big a one.

 

[Stan]

... If I pay you, Kevin Rooney, for a service, and you sub it out, and I don't approve, then I come to you, Kevin Rooney, with complaints or legal action ...

Ahhh! Great! Finally! Someone we can blame for everything! Thanks for the lead.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I realize there's a difference, but it's not that big a one.

Looks like the AMC is going to need a new mission statement.

OLD: "Founded in 1876, the Appalachian Mountain Club is America's oldest nonprofit conservation and recreation organization. We promote the protection, enjoyment, and wise use of the mountains, rivers, and trails of the Appalachian region."

NEW : "Founded in 1876, we found that over time providing even modest facilities for grubby hiker types in our mega-hotels isn't much of a money maker, so our new mission is to fleece the wealthy whilst ignoring the folks in the cheap seats. Hey, everyone else around here does, so what's the problem? Pay up or Shut up!"



Don't Blow a Gasket Now, It's All in Good Fun

 

[bikehikeskifish]

OLD: "Founded in 1876, the Appalachian Mountain Club is America's oldest nonprofit conservation and recreation organization. We promote the protection, enjoyment, and wise use of the mountains, rivers, and trails of the Appalachian region."

Non-profit means net non-profit. If they make "too much" money, they lose their non-profit status. I was president of a bicycle club which was a MA non-profit corporation, and there was a limit on net income for a given year. As long as we took our sponsorship money, race-promotion income, and membership dues, and used it for the purposes of the club (subsidized clothing and race entry fees - promoting the sport; race prize money, etc.) then we were OK.

So, if the AMC wants to take money from high-end vacationers and use it to advance their causes, far better than for them to pester me via telemarketers all the time.

I appreciate their trail maintenance and advocacy.

Tim

 

[Chip]

Don't Blow a Gasket Now, It's All in Good Fun

Never. There's too many other more pressing issues out there and I understand the hypocrisy.

Without getting too absurd: Wouldn't it be as valid, maybe more valid to criticize other Eco-Advocacy Non Profits (Sierra Club comes to mind) that have NO presence in the Whites ? AMC is far from perfect but at least they're out there trying. Again, "Non-Profit" can not mean "Must lose money keeping everybody happy."

 

[Tim Seaver]

It's Not Easy Being a Non-Profit Kingpin

Non-profit means net non-profit. If they make "too much" money, they lose their non-profit status.
Tim

It appears that their ED is doing his best to make sure they don't make too much on paper. Very thoughtful of him!

I appreciate the many good things the AMC does as well, but as others have pointed out, that support doesn't get in the way of my criticism for things they do that I do NOT like. Organizations such as the AMC benefit from rigorous debate on their practices.

People who have only experienced the NEW Highland Center, with no sense of what used to be there, may not quite fully understand where some folks are coming from on this.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I've probably made this observation before in other threads, so bear with me -

The AMC is a big tent. So is the Sierra Club. We all have expectations of what we think each club's mission statement should be, and in reality, we may believe that our personalized mission statements are at odds with the direction a club may be taking. Something to keep in mind is that these clubs often have two distinct "personalities" - one that exists on the "corporate" level, and another which exists on the local, or chapter level. So, when I hear someone they don't support the AMC because they don't agree with the policies of X, Y or Z - but that they do like the free, or nearly free, outdoor education they can get at the chapter level - I wonder if they realize that by withholding their membership $$ from the corporate AMC they are hurting the local chapters. Each chapter, whether it's the AMC or SC, gets a portion of your dues money, and it needs it in order to provide all those freebie educational benefits, helps provide the infrastructure for leading hikes, and all the rest.

My post may sound like I'm a supporter of the status quo, but anyone who has read my posts over the years or knows me personally knows that I'm anything but. However, it's important to recognize that any large organization will have some goals/objectives/priorities which we don't agree with. The question we have to ask ourselves it - by withdrawing/withholding my support will I damage those aspects of the organization which I do support? And, can I be a more effective "agent of change" by working from within the organization or from without?

This has been good thread, and am glad to see it hasn't devolved into the usual rant.

(And Tim - I got your check for the plowing ... it bounced!)

 

[giggy]

Never. There's too many other more pressing issues out there and I understand the hypocrisy.

Without getting too absurd: Wouldn't it be as valid, maybe more valid to criticize other Eco-Advocacy Non Profits (Sierra Club comes to mind) that have NO presence in the Whites ? AMC is far from perfect but at least they're out there trying. Again, "Non-Profit" can not mean "Must lose money keeping everybody happy."

specifically talking about the HC.....

for me - its not about them making money - of course they have to. But what is different from the AMC vs the high end Ski reports is the non profit status should at least (even if not legally binding) have them make an honest effort to include all. IMO - the highland center does not do that - it is very clear who is "welcome" there, by the price, the high end beer (have not seen a bud there???), the wine, the cheese, the lack of coin op showers or gear room, etc...

I was a bit put off b/c while I have no way of knowing for sure and I am not wasting time looking it up - they must have some sort of arrangment to be able to set up shop in that location (is it actually in the state park??, can't recall)

AMC does some good stuff for sure - but the HC was a message sent to me - of....well ok - your a member, you send the 50 bucks a year, etc... but your not really welcome at the HC. (no gear room, no coin op showers, recall when it first opened - there was no bunkhouse)

The breakfest doesn't work for me either - like to get an early start typically sitting down just takes too long in the morning. my guess is I am not alone in that practice. Is the food even optional??? The bunk is still like 40 bucks a person right? cheaper places in twin mountain even with the DD bagel sandwhich.

whatever - the place works for some, I just felt there is enough high end stuff in north conway and not enough low end stuff in the notch.

 

[mookie]

it is very clear who is "welcome" there, by the price, the high end beer (have not seen a bud there???), ???

do people really drink that crap anyway?

 

[Kevin Rooney]

It appears that their ED is doing his best to make sure they don't make too much on paper. Very thoughtful of him!

Wow, that's an eye-opener - thanks for posting the link.

I wonder what the director of the GMC makes? I realize it's a bit of apples and oranges, but isn't it something modest, like $30K or something?

 

[mookie]

Wow, that's an eye-opener - thanks for posting the link.

I wonder what the director of the GMC makes? I realize it's a bit of apples and oranges, but isn't it something modest, like $30K or something?

2007 he made somewhere around 70k +
i cant remember exactly but i do remember viewing a financial statement.
ill google it later and see what i can find.

definately comparing apples to oranges though.

 

[spencer]

It appears that their ED is doing his best to make sure they don't make too much on paper. Very thoughtful of him!

If you sort that list by descending 2007 salary, Falendar is 14 out of 39 in the database. How mediocre of him... he should either push his way to the top and be an achiever or sit back and be noble

I wanted to stay at Joe Dodge this weekend and they wanted $64 for a bunk and breakfast. Apparently someone is willing to pay that b/c they only had two slots left at 7pm on Saturday when I called. I opted for another location.

I won't get into all my other mixed feelings (many have been stated already) but I thought this price was over the top, even for AMC.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

2007 he made somewhere around 70k +.

According to this, he makes (made?) $73K.