Posting 'secret' spots online

[Peakbagr]

This is an issue I've wanted to get a dialogue going on for a long time. I mentioned my view to Darren and David last year, but we didn't have time to give it a real thrashing.
I'm interested in what you all have to say. Over on ADKHPs, board policy says no publishing of track logs to bushwhacks and fragile places. I'm in 100% agreement.

In NH and New England, there is a longer history of hiking and especially bushwhacking than in the ADKs and Catskills. At least thats what my reading tells me. The NH, ME, VT trailless 3k peaks have a pretty long history of peakbagging, route sharing and summit registers.
In the NY mountains, the bushwhacking history is not as deep, and in some cases, the ethic is just forming.
In the days before the internet, my secret waterfalls, slides, open ledges, and spectacular waterfalls could only be learned about by a few close friends. The information could not be instantly disseminated for a casual Google search.
To be sure, many share tracklogs and online maps privately. But almost everyone on VFTT is here because they like to hike, love the woods, and treasure those little discoveries we sometimes make. Places we feel no one has ever seen or been to before. Or very few.
In my view, putting online directions to a treasured place exposes it to the casual explorer. And once that indelible description of the fragile or 'secret spot' is on the net, the handful of explorers that may have learned about it previously, may be multiplied to an extent uncalculated by the poster.

I'm hoping others will add to the discussion so we can begin a discuss as to what you think should or should not be put online.
And I do this risking that people might say this is elitism. I feel the subject is important enough to take the chance and welcome your thoughts.

 

[McRat]

I'm hoping others will add to the discussion so we can begin a discuss as to what you think should or should not be put online.
And I do this risking that people might say this is elitism. I feel the subject is important enough to take the chance and welcome your thoughts.

Of course it's elitist. That's the appeal.

Great point on the era of search engines. Sometimes the sense of community is strong enough that we forget that.

Anything posted here is never more than a couple of keywords and a click away from every computer on the net.

 

[dms]

Over on ADKHPs, board policy says no publishing of track logs to bushwhacks and fragile places. I'm in 100% agreement.

I think this is a good policy. Private sharing of info among friends is one thing, it's gone on for years, but McRat raises a good point about how easy such info gets into the public realm by sharing it on the board itself. I try to only use pm's or emails to share this kind of info.

 

[Pamola]

Honestly, my use of "secret" was tongue-in-cheek. I have no idea if it's secret or if it exists at all. Like double-secret probation.

More germane to the thread, I think it's the conundrum of the information age. Little is secret nowadays. Personal lives, public events, the wilderness, and secrets of all natures are easily findable by someone at a desk with an internet connection. It may be elitism, but the the tact and concerted effort to retain some mystery of the wild, to keep it from entering the public sphere forever, is a respectable pursuit.

If I find the fabled waterfall, I'm not telling any of you.

 

[audrey]

If indeed the treasured place would be attractive to the hordes, then I agree completely. I would never hesitate to give directions privately to anyone I know from this board, though.

Now, who wants to know how to get to Cow Ridge, Boil Mountain, or Onion Hill?

 

[Peakbagr]

Pamola,

I was not being critical of you waterfall post. It just reminded me that this was a topic that I'd wanted to put in front of the membership for quite some time.

In the Adirondacks, this is an issue of large concern. Many of the trailless ADK100 are truly trailless. With the exception of some view improvements, summit signs, and a few cannister, the routes up(with the exception of the very tops) usually show no sign of herd paths.

 

[Tuggy]

I would tell a friend of a special spot but I sure wouldn't publish it to everyone. Have ya seen the amount of litter people leave in special spots? Anything from broken beer bottles to diapers. No thanks. Most people who get out have found their own cache of special spots without needing to know mine and I don't need to know theirs.

 

[bigmoose]

I'd advocate keeping bushwhacking information off the "trail conditions" section of the site. Trail conditions, I would think, should include a hiker's observations about blowdown, creek crossings, broken bridges, snow pack and such along the marked trails.

A bushwhacker might want to call attention to severe blowdown, open woods or difficult cliffs in a trip report without getting into specific route information. Using such information to avoid a perilous route can help prevent a "bad trip" but, for the most part, I'd rather find my own way, make my own discoveries, share the experience on the site maybe, but leave out the track logs, waypoints, and specific details.

 

[TCD]

I don't really feel strongly either way about nice spots I discover. The joy of sharing, and the desire to keep the place unlittered, both seem important. But on the whole, I'd rather know that people are enjoying a prettty spot, than stand there and preen my feathers being so proud that I kept it secret, so that only I and my privileged friends would know about it.

My natural tendency is to be inclusive, so I'm automatically disgusted by anything that smacks of elitism. Of course I'm also disgusted by litter in the woods.

My observation is that places stay nicer if they're hard to get to. This applies whether people have directions or not. Most trailed areas deep in are pretty clean, simply because the slobs are lazy. On the flip side, wild areas, if they are close to the road, are often discovered by the litter crowd, even if they are "secret."

TCD

 

[albee]

I'm going to take the opposite opinion of most of you so far. If somebody comes across something interesting, beautiful, or "special", then why keep that to yourself? My opinion is that life is too short to keep something beautiful to yourself. So few people get off the beaten track anyway, that posting something here is not likely to noticibly change the traffic of a particular spot save for all but the most adventurous of us.

I thought one of the best things about this website was that people were helpful and willing to share information. I do find it elitist, and frankly, obnoxious, to suggest we impose a policy limiting our "freedom of speech" here in a community of people that, for the most part, love and respect the outdoors. I would freely exchange hiking information with anyone here, whether in a forum or via PM.

In terms of bushwhacking beta in the trail conditions section: if you don't like it, don't read it!

In terms of secret spots and search engines: people can't find something if they don't know what it's called. How many people out there will randomly stumble upon "Magalloway Falls" or some other obscure term for a "special place" that someone here made up? And if someone does do a search, ends up here, and learns something valuable to them in the process, then great!

As always, I'm happy to agree to disagree, so long as you do so respectfully.

 

[Peakbagr]

I started the thread knowing there would be disagreement.

As I admitted at the onset, I had a position and a strong one about this. For me, it has no bearing that I'm one of the only ones to see a beautiful place. There are many of them. My overwhelming feeling is that I want to protect the spot and have it remain the way I found it, in-perpetuity if possible. That means a little waterfall, small beaver pond, open meadow, or rock cavern on the side of a cliff....And for me, that means if someone finds it on their own, what a nice thing to befall them. For me to post it on the internet, it will often guarantee too many visitors. 2,300 members here and multiples of that with the lurkers. About as many on the Adirondack forum.
Besides the name and locale forever etched in search engine heaven, if only a fraction of 1% find the description alluring or interesting enough to visit it, and then they post their comments about it truly being a beautiful spot, it won't remain that way for long.
In the non digital age, we wouldn't be having this conversation online. We might be talking about it if I knew you well enough.
I respect your position to differ, but we are on opposite ends of this one.
I'm hoping many more will join the discussion. From some of the PMs and email I've received, it appears its important to many.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

No matter what your opinion, the fact remains: Google never forgets. I can find posts I made to mailing lists and usenet news going back nearly 20 years -- way before Google ever existed. But somewhere they were archived, and Google got a link and presto -- in perpetuity. At a glance, Googling "BikeHikeSkiFish" reveals posts within the last few days (the EMS kayak demo days appeared near the top...)

Someone may or may not know how to spell your secret spot, but someone will link to it and before you know it, you won't have to know how to spell it.

Now, speaking of secret spots and trash, I went for a stroll at lunch time today along the Merrimack River in North Andover. There is a ton of trash here, in particular, a lot has collected after the flooding. Today I didn't notice the trash as I spent 15 minutes standing still on a foot bridge watching a great blue heron hunting in a drainage creek. At one point he flew up and landed on the hand rail of the bridge, maybe 10-12 feet away. We exchanged looks for 10 seconds or so before he swooped back down to resume his search for lunch. Pretty cool. As populated and littered as the river is in that area, it still has a ton of wildlife. Beavers are constantly dropping poplars, I've seen 2 or 3 deer on multiple occasions, carp jumping out of the river, and tons of birds. Today I also heard a bird (couldn't see it -- too high) which had a most-varied set of calls -- it cycled through at least a dozen different sounds.

All this behind an industrial park along the river.

Tim

 

[blacknblue]

albee - I agree with you that it is nearly impossible to withhold sharing our joyous experiences with others. I think it was CS Lewis who said that a joy withheld is a joy unfinished (or something like that).

On the other hand, there is a tremendous difference between getting excited about a discovery and sharing it with my brother, sig o, close friends, etc. and posting the information online. The intimacy of a small community is what makes the experience more special and that gets ruined when a few thousands of my not-so-closest friends is now privy.

Of course, that is just my take on how we tend to express ourselves. In terms of moderating a site such as VFTT...

I hate to see everything legislated to the extent that only maintained trails are discussed in any detail and trailless destinations can only be discussed in shadowy vague descriptors. I don't see the harm in allowing people to ask questions about features and locations and routes, and allowing others to PM them -- that maintains the informational and communal aspects of VFTT without publicizing secret spots.

If anything, there are trip reports being posted in the height of mud season that seem to run entirely against the grain of responsible trail/erosion management, and I would rather have those banned than discussions about routes in trailless areas.

 

[blacknblue]

I thought one of the best things about this website was that people were helpful and willing to share information. I do find it elitist, and frankly, obnoxious, to suggest we impose a form of "freedom of speech" here in a community of people that, for the most part, love and respect the outdoors. I would freely exchange hiking information with anyone here, whether in a forum or via PM.

In terms of bushwhacking beta in the trail conditions section: if you don't like it, don't read it!

I think this can still be a helpful website even with some more stringent regulations in place and I think that is what the moderators are trying to get a feel for -- how to balance desires for privacy with maintaining the helpful climate of the forum. I really don't think it's a freedom of speech issue.

The problem with simply ignoring trail condition reports is that a few thousand other people CAN read it. If someone publishes my favorite swimming hole or powder cache or bushwhacking route, then yeah, I'm going to be disappointed, and me decided to just not read won't keep thousands of people from discovering it.

 

[Peakbagr]

I think sharing the joy and fun is great. Its sharing the locale where my concern lays. I don't think anyone is talking about legislating anything. It was more my hope that a concensus would develop that posting too many details is probably not a great thing.

A good debate on this is healthy.

 

[HuiYeng]

I personally has benefited from postings on the web to find some interesting off beat (secret or not) places in the Whites. I thank them and look forward for more of such great information.

Sure in the Google age everything is few searches and clicks away, but what's wrong for people who have the heart and passion to research a place or lost trail and found the info here. That's how I found out about VFTT. To Albee's point, people are not likely to randomly stumble upon an obscure name, most likely they're researching for it. As for VFTT lurkers to read about a secret place from a post here, I think people who care to read this forum and interesting enough to be intrigued by the post should be responsible enough to further the exploration.

I think people should be free to decide whether or not to post a secret place, it's their choice. I agree that a good debate is healthy, but somehow I have an unsettling feeling that the consensus that developed here may eventually lead to a policy.

Peace.

 

[Grayjay]

It's human nature to share the joy of a place. But there is a price. All that wonderful literature has contributed to the mess on Mount Everest. What if you write about an isolated ledge, and in two years you go back and there is the beginning of a herd path to it, and some accidental trash on top? Or, you could go back and there is no sign of anyone.
There are those who want to keep all such places secret. This is admirable, but if that were human nature, Columbus would have kept mum about the new world.
The telling of story involves place. Story is all people have. It's up to the individual.

 

[Artex]

This is a big issue with fishing forums. The accepted solution on those sites I check out is you don't give specifics on the boards, but instead requests are honored through PMs if the one in the know deems it fit. I bet the same concept would also work well with hiking. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Grumpy]

The original question, as I understand it, is this:

Should VFTT adopt a policy that prohibits the posting of information about “secret” spots?

My answer to that would be “no, no, a thousand times no.”

We do not need more rules and regulations to govern our behavior here. What we have is working just fine, and to add more would make VFTT a sterile place. The free exchange of information and thoughts relevant to hiking in the NE United States – New England and New York – is what has made VFTT the gold standard in hiking forums. That is not broken, and it needs no fixing.

I have no quarrel with this discussion or the idea of a VFTT statement posted somewhere suggesting that highly specific information (GPS tracklogs, for example) not be openly published here, in order to protect the sanctity of special places and the experience of exploration and discovery, blah, blah, blah.

But it should stand as a suggestion, only.

No sanctions for violations. No moderators deleting material. Self restraint is a good thing to encourage. Imposed censorship merely stifles participation and creates tension.

G.

 

[John H Swanson]

An interesting thread that brings up a subject I obviously think about often.

It's human nature to share the joy of a place. But there is a price. All that wonderful literature has contributed to the mess on Mount Everest. What if you write about an isolated ledge, and in two years you go back and there is the beginning of a herd path to it, and some accidental trash on top? Or, you could go back and there is no sign of anyone.
There are those who want to keep all such places secret. This is admirable, but if that were human nature, Columbus would have kept mum about the new world.
The telling of story involves place. Story is all people have. It's up to the individual.

Inside I want to spill my guts and tell everyone about the many really nice spots I've found, but I don't want to ruin these spots from overuse. I have even gone so far as to write an article talking about some great expereinces without mentioning the location. It was never published as it died in peer review. My close friends jokingly called it the hike to no where.

In general, I limit my recos to PMs. There are a few spots that I've old told one or two people about and some that I haven't shared with anyone.....Bla, bla, bla. This is old news. The point I want to make (at risk of hijacking the tread) is that, for me, the greatness of the experience is very much time and place dependent. The dry dusty summit with a hazy view may offer a beautiful sunset for someone else. When I think about my special places in the NEUS, many of them were special because of time perhaps more than place. I can tell you of cool cascading streams but the gem was the contrast with the high temps a few hours earlier. I could easily find that stream again but the experience wouldn't be the same.

Now I could tell everyone about that stream and how special it was and people would be flocking to it in droves. Most of them wouldn't find it special, and after a few thousand, perhaps no one would find it pristine.