Proposal to have NY section of VFTT?

[Peakbagr]

Neil, Ya made me smile.

And Percious, I don't find VFTT stale. I find the NY contribution very stale.
We have over 2,300 members. And there are new members. The new members are more carefully vetted as the moderators took too much grief getting the Board back to where Darren wanted it, to just open it back up to the problems of the past. The ADK Forum and ADKHPS provide a warm environment where good things are talked about, by knowledgeable members, but they do it in their own way as you well know.


Black Spruce is one of the most experienced and well plugged in members of the Adirondack hiking community. She knows, talks with, or hikes with more different people than I will in a lifetime. In Black Spruce's role as a 46er Corrsepondent, she comes into contact with dozens of aspiring ADK46ers. Just by herself, she represents many, many NY hikers who represent the viewpoint she states.

If it were my board, I would have done it and folks would have awakened to the 'new world' this morning. A world where everything is different 'cause VFTT decided to reorganize itself to make it easier for a large but minority constituency to post and read.
And for those where non-New England stuff is of less or little importance or , make 1 click to occasionally check in.

When the AMC boards got into trouble, VFTT rec'd a huge influx of New England oriented members. With their influx, there were large issues with some people who were not used to a strongly-moderated board environment. Most of that is behind us now. What we do have is a group of New England experts, who by their influx, made the non-NE members feel that their interests got lost. That perception has only grown.

Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint. I have no agenda other than my promise to the NY members who have stoned me the last few years that I would try and re-build the NY contribution on VFTT. With the stipulation that it won't cause problems for others.
By a simple addition of a Non-New England Q&A section, the NY members won't have to wade thru a sea of New England posts to find something of interest to them, and the NE-ers, with one click, can satisfy their NY jones.
Nothing else has to change. Trip reports, gear, non northeast-oriented posts will still go into the General Backcounty.
Guys, give it a freakin' chance and if it doesn't work, I'll come back here and apolgize for being mistaken and we can then go back to the way it is now.

All of this is blather. The board owner makes the call as he pays the bills.

 

[dug]

Just sayin': You asked for our opinions, and you got them. Do what you, Darren, Dave, etc. feel is best. But, if you don't like our opinions, don't ask....

 

[Peakbagr]

I really did want to hear what people thought. I'd like to apolgize for being a pitbull on this.
The issue, as is VFTT, is very near to me and I've been hearing from so many about the demise of NY on VFTT, it just kind of 'let go'. I didn't even consult with Darren before I posted it, though he's heard a lot about this privately for some time.
As people say, passion is good, on either side of an issue. Silence is deadly and it means people don't care.

I truly believe the suggestion is in the best interests of VFTT( there, I did it again), but also realize its more than just academic to me.

Sorry for giving the impression that I don't value other viewpoints on this. I do.

 

[percious]

Neil, Ya made me smile.

And Percious, I don't find VFTT stale. I find the NY contribution very stale.
We have over 2,300 members. And there are new members. The new members are more carefully vetted as the moderators took too much grief getting the Board back to where Darren wanted it, to just open it back up to the problems of the past. The ADK Forum and ADKHPS provide a warm environment where good things are talked about, by knowledgeable members, but they do it in their own way as you well know.

I didn't say it *is* stale, I said it *was* stale. It's much better now, except for the ADK contingency. Just pointing out a possible problem with assuming that setting up a separate section is going to bring the droves of ADK people back. The fact is that they may already be gone. New membership is the best way to add to the knowledge base.

That being said. What kind of metrics do you propose using to decide whether or not this is a win?

-percious

 

[bubba]

It's a message board for criminy's sake, not nuclear proliferation, . Not to mention, it's free...

Ha, ha, ha!! But I don't care about neclear proliferation!!

Now, about that free thing... this board is a strain on my time, family, marriage, auto and wallet. I spend too much time reading posts, and too much time/$$ traveling, finding out I need better equipment, training on equipment and upgrades to existing equipment. Before this board, I was happy to only hike in nice weather in my lyrcas not knowing anybody*.

*Then there's that beer thing...

 

[miehoff]

I'm For a NY Section

Without reading all of the responses to this thread (trying to give my gut feeling about it), I would think a NY section would make this site (board) bigger while not really making it bigger. I sometimes run out of stuff to read. Honestly, I don't read ever post and every thread, but I think that having another section would make the information here more dense by allowing it to be categorized. Think of when create folders on your hard drive, it just makes it easier to get around and faster to find what you need to find. Being a former graphic designer and now a carpenter (bummer I can't fit musician into this relationship), I have learned that splitting things up into tasks (categories), and seeing them that way doesn't really separate them, it just increases the focus on the individual part. I think I would learn more about the NY mountains and their hiking community if I were given the choice to zero in on that area whenever needed. In fact, the few times that I have posted questions about a ADK backpacking trip that I was planning, I wished there was a NY section that I could use to post.

I would like to see it happen...

 

[Stan]

I think a NY section makes sense for Trip Reports as well as questions strictly related to NY trails (NY trails Q&As, Canadian trails Q&As, Southern New England trails Q&As anyone???). Personally, I find the "Trail Conditions" and it's geographic arrangement to be a more useful planning resource than wading through trips reports.

I think it would unnecessarily break up the group dynamics and breadth of knowledge that is shared in the Q&As and General forums. I'm against fragmenting those and the Events forums.

As for the name of any new NY oriented forum, it ought to be NY. That's the constituency which seems to be seeking it and it should not assume that anyone else wants to be included. If they do, then label it NY/NJ etc., or whatever the case may be.

Some geographic reorganization may be in order to accomodate the large membership and possible future growth but not if it breaks up the cohesiveness that exists. Remember, too, this is all voluntary on the part of the webmeister, the moderators and the membership.

 

[Papa Bear]

...
As for the name of any new NY oriented forum, it ought to be NY. That's the constituency which seems to be seeking it and it should not assume that anyone else wants to be included. If they do, then label it NY/NJ etc., or whatever the case may be.
...

I agree with the name. But whatever you name it, Don't name it "non-NE". That's a negative thing and might imply (to some) a lower status. Name it what it is, not what it isn't.

 

[Mark Schaefer]

I don't necessarily view the fact that much of the NY discussion has migrated to other websites as a problem. As VFTT got larger a little off loading of content may have helped to keep VFTT manageable. There have been many cross reference links to those other sites posted on VFTT, so hikers seeking NY information have started to view and join those sites.

If a NY Q&A session will help VFTT members find NY information more readily it seems worth a trial run. Echoing many others in this thread, I use the "New Posts" button, so it will not impact me. Only occasionally do I click on the individual forums to verify that I haven't missed something (no longer appears in the new posts list), or to post in a thread that has been inactive for a while. For that reason I would not want to see a great proliferation of forums.

Just food for thought. Perhaps the division could be:

New England Q&A
New York an other Q&A​

or perhaps:

NH and Maine Q&A
NY, VT, and other Q&A​

Even in the second division, the NH and Maine (essentially a White Mt) Q&A would currently have the vast majority of threads and posts.

 

[mike1889]

The main reason I rarely visit this site any more is because it takes me too long to weed through the 6 or so pages of new posts to find the very few threads about the Adirondacks. So I am for a NY section.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Only occasionally do I click on the individual forums to verify that I haven't missed something (no longer appears in the new posts list)

This little problem is solved in adkhp. If there are no unread posts, it shows you the posts for the last 24 hours, something I find very useful.

VFTT is several releases downlevel on VBulletin (3.0.3) compared to ADKHP (3.6.2).

Upgrading might be helpful...

 

[spongebob]

If we can segregate New Yorkers I am all for it. Funky Freddy and a few others need to be locked in a dark corner of VFTT. I personally think that the spinoff boards(Or whatever you want to call the three or so newish boards) were people who wanted to fill a niche or felt a need for control what was not given here. I think New York specific posts are low for the amount of hikers out there. Does this mean that New Yorkers cut and run, because they feel left out? That is not patriotic. But we could do a Denial of Service hack attack or something similiar on those other boards, and crash them. Then have the grand opening of the new section here. Just something to think about.

Maybe even break it down Green Mts, Adrirondacks, Whites, Catskills, Rockin' Maine, and Other weird places.

I guess try something if people feel that New Yorkers need some extra help to post here. Kind of like a subsidy tax credit for hybrid cars, but without the car or the subsidy.

Hey, I am very fond of hiking in New York, and have hiked many many more times there than my own state of Maine. So what the heck lets give it a go, and get rid of Funky Freddy....Oh and try this new thing.

 

[Rik]

Without reading all of the responses to this thread (trying to give my gut feeling about it), I would think a NY section would make this site (board) bigger while not really making it bigger. I sometimes run out of stuff to read. Honestly, I don't read ever post and every thread, but I think that having another section would make the information here more dense by allowing it to be categorized. Think of when create folders on your hard drive, it just makes it easier to get around and faster to find what you need to find. Being a former graphic designer and now a carpenter (bummer I can't fit musician into this relationship), I have learned that splitting things up into tasks (categories), and seeing them that way doesn't really separate them, it just increases the focus on the individual part. I think I would learn more about the NY mountains and their hiking community if I were given the choice to zero in on that area whenever needed. In fact, the few times that I have posted questions about a ADK backpacking trip that I was planning, I wished there was a NY section that I could use to post.

I would like to see it happen...

This is how I see it as well. Just a way to reorganize. Again, I don't see any harm in trying it.
The trail conditions section is broken down by state and I think that works very well. Sure they could all be thrown together but I like that they are organized the way they are. If I'm just surfing to read or kill time then I wander all over the site but if I'm looking for something I prefer having the information organized.

 

[cantdog]

I want to update my $.02 to say that I will support whatever decision is made regarding this matter. It is very obvious that Alan has put a lot of thought into this thread and he clearly stated his mission in his previous posts. I'm ok with that. Also, with regard to Neil's post, I could take the time to review the numbers, but I know the trend is the same. I have posted trip reports for almost ALL my peakbagging in the Adirondacks and have seen similar results. My conclusion is that I agree that many prolific quality members of this site have taken their primary production elsewhere. That's ok since I go there also. However, it would be nice to have them back in a capacity more than just lurkers. Just one drop in the bucket of opinion...

 

[RoySwkr]

By saying we'd divide up VFTT into a separate Forum for each of those states would be impractical for the moderators and our members. Good points about PA and NJ as they are not part of New England. A new section, if it were approved, should probably not say NY Q&A, but "Q&A - NON NE".

So that would put all the West Coast stuff in with NY? Probably should be New England, NY/NJ/PA, and Other.

Someone made a good point about what is the real difference between General Backcountry and Q&A. If you know a certain bridge is out, you put it in GB because it's not a question but if you ask about it goes in Q&A? Same with new gear. I'd like to give everything one more shake and change Q&A/GB to Places/Gear. In line with the above, there would be Gear, Places-NE, Places-NY, and Places-Other.

Note that I expect to hike in all 3 categories this year, but I find it easier to maintain context by looking at related notes together. One big problem which limits usefulness of this board is that there are multiple threads on the same topic because people don't Search first. The more categories there are, the more likely someone would find an existing thread.

 

[Rivet]

If you wanted to be democratic, you could set up a poll so people could vote on the matter.

 

[Peakbagr]

I gave some thought to beginning the thread that way, but how effective would that be with 75% of the members from outside NY?

IMHO, this idea shouldn't be the subject of a popularity contest. I proposed it for the long term health of VFTT, and sometimes you gotta bite the bullet short term to make things better long term.

 

[amstony]

Maybe even break it down Green Mts, Adrirondacks, Whites, Catskills, Rockin' Maine, and Other weird places.

Hey SpongeBob- what about the mighty Monadnock range in So. NH, don't leave us out!
That isn't weird. Enough people hike that area to justify a board too...........

Just kidding!

 

[askus3]

I just woke up after sleeping the day away (I work and play all night on VFTT). Wow, my post is buried #35. Got caught up on this thread. Some questions from my post #35 were skirted and some answered. And some (Rivet #76) repeated (about the poll). It sounds like NJ & PA would be part of NY. Taconics & CT is up for grab, being left for posters choice and Quebec is in limbo (could it be part of the baccountry forum, like Utah?). VT suggested by Papa Bear is part of NY.

So after reading all this stuff. I have come to the conclusion that if Darren agrees with Peakbagr, it is a done deal. After all it is Darren's board that we all are fortunate to contribute and participate on. This will be a trial, so give it a go. I am not in favor of it, but it is not worth getting all bent out of shape over. I am still going to go hiking where I decide to go hiking. I am still going to post when I want to post.

Tom Rankin has a good idea to upgrade the forum. One suggestion if it doesn't cause too much trouble to do is when we hit on "New Posts", could the forum of the post that it is in be listed? (ie. Whiteblaze, which has more forums, split up so that it takes forever to decide where I want to post).

As for me, I must have been in the dark as a New Yorker as I did not know until this discussion that the other two Adirondack boards existed. So I have always posted my New York ramblings here. I felt that we have had gatherings in the catskills (which I attended) and Adirondacks, so I thought that NY was well represented. Peakbagr has the statistics about the decline of New York posts and wants to stop the trend. And I agree, an action must be taken or the trend probably will continue. Some kind of action is required to change the course. I don't know if this is the answer, but credit must be given towards a change in direction.

I just wanted to add that I am currently still satisfied with NY participation. In the end of January, I started a thread in Trips & Events on a hike I was leading to climb Doubletop in the Catskills. There were no subsequent posts. However, a fellow inquired about my hike from reading a post here. He participated on the hike and we enjoyed the day together. I then sponsored him to join VFTT (have heard no response on this from Darren). After the hike I posted my report to that thread. I could have placed that report in the Trip Report forum, but chose to keep it in the same thread. So I felt there is NY activity and I am glad to be a member of VFTT and will support whatever the members in charge decide. Wish I could go to NYC this evening to greet Alpinista and discuss the merits and dvision over a few beers when I might get my head straight in the process, but I have to take a raincheck. However, I agree with Spongebob, we have to find a special place for FunkyFreddy and maybe the NY forum would be that place.

 

[spider solo]

QFT.
-percious

I tend to agree with percious.

Though I must be Thick as a Brick cuz I thought all this was resolved a couple of years ago...and Darren might actually be enjoying things a bit more these days.

The hardest thing for me to understand about the whole thing is.... what is QFT ?

Aside from that if I want info on paddling, for example, I check out about 3 web sites to gather any info or search for new ideas etc.

Guess I just don't understand what is the difficulty in checking out a few web sites to gather info for hiking or whatever.