Question about getting to Owls Head

[dug]

17 people? My God.

 

[John H Swanson]

17 people? My God.

Isn't there a law limiting the number of people on a trip into the Wildernes area?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Group sizes must be 10 or less. I couldn't find any mention of what happens when 4 groups of 10 or less all leave at different times and pile up behind the lead group who is breaking trail in knee deep (or deeper) snow. There were 4 distinct groups that I am aware of that went to Owl's Head yesterday. 17 divided by 4 is less than 10.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/whi.../pdf_documents/PLAN_PDF/E_PLAN_wilderness.pdf

5.3.2 Education Messages for All Zones
Group number should be kept to a minimum, never exceeding ten, while hiking or camping. Multiple unassociated parties may simultaneously occupy a site, designated or otherwise, as long as their total numbers do not exceed ten.

I guess it depends on how you interpret "site" and "occupy". I should point out that we spoke to a ranger in the LW lot, she asked where we were going, we told her (our group had 3) so presumably she checked with other groups as well.

Tim

 

[J&J]

We were with Hiker Ed and there were 10 people in our group when we set off down the trail at 6:00AM. I know the other two groups behind us didn't set off until 7:00AM plus. The other groups that eventually caught up to us were groups of four and three. There was another small group that went up the slide. There was also a singleton that followed our tracks up.

I would say we all complied with Wilderness limits. If the trail had been broken out, we would all have been ships passing in the night. But as it was, breaking trail, there was a backup. Personally, I didn't hear anyone complaining about their Wilderness experience being disturbed.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

We were with Hiker Ed and there were 10 people in our group when we set off down the trail at 6:00AM. I know the other two groups behind us didn't set off until 7:00AM plus. The other groups that eventually caught up to us were groups of four and three. There was another small group that went up the slide. There was also a singleton that followed our tracks up.

I would say we all complied with Wilderness limits. If the trail had been broken out, we would all have been ships passing in the night. But as it was, breaking trail, there was a backup. Personally, I didn't hear anyone complaining about their Wilderness experience being disturbed.

Out of curiosity - did your group take the slide route?

 

[J&J]

We went up the "Brutus Bushwhack" named after a famous 4k bagging Newf.

 

[HockeyPuck]

Kevin.

I ascended as a group of three via the slide, but descended via your best buddy's route.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

We went up the "Brutus Bushwhack" named after a famous 4k bagging Newf.

Thanks - sometimes necessity is the mother of invention. While he'd been up that slide 2 or 3 times in summer, he refused to go up the ice in winter, so ... the alternative route seems to be the better one, all things considered, in winter. Still lots of steep sidehilling, so it's not like it's a total walk-up. I think he did it twice, maybe 3 times via that route before we moved west.

And, I'm a sucker for a glen full of white birches.

 

[B the Hiker]

Hi all,

Oops, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that we were one big group of 17. Rather, Ed Hawkins and two other leaders had an AMC group of 10, there were three VFTT folks who formed another group, and I had my group of four. I called Ed and explained I wasn't comfortable taking my three up alone, and he very generously offered to have us come up with his group, but we didn't meet with them at the trailhead, or sign on as members of his trip or anything.

It was very nice meeting so many new people, and I have to say it was a good thing we had so many since it was a ton of work breaking trail up the mountain. I am also very grateful to Ed. People of his caliber and experience can sometimes become very cocky and cliquish, and Ed is just the opposite; he is such an enthusiastic and generous person! He loves hiking, and he loves helping other people come to love hiking as much as he does. Ed is one of those rare people who are absolutely fantastic at bringing out the best in others. He took the time at various spots to show me various routes that I didn't know about, under the hopes that I'll lead trips up Owls Head on my own at some point in the future and will benefit from his knowledge. Ed truly has class, like few others I have ever met.

For all the work, it was a very fun day! I look forward to hiking again in the future with many of the folks I met on Saturday.


All the best,



Brian

 

[dug]

I still picture Mallory's assault on Everest.

 

[RoySwkr]

I would say we all complied with Wilderness limits.

Note that for off-trail hikes in Wilderness, the suggested maximum size is 4, and guided trips aren't allowed at all

If you think this violates safety rules, that's the Forest Plan in action

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Note that for off-trail hikes in Wilderness, the suggested maximum size is 4, and guided trips aren't allowed at all

If you think this violates safety rules, that's the Forest Plan in action

Roy - can you cite a readily-available document online somewhere? I've heard this too - and while 4 is a suggested maximum, it is only suggested. Some zones suggest 6 or fewer. How many people actually pay the voluntary higher income tax rate in MA (do they still offer this?)?

My suspicion is that AMC leaders are not guides - no money changes hands - and thus they are allowed to lead trips on Wilderness hikes. Otherwise the AMC could never advertise a whole bunch of trips.

Tim

 

[Turtle]

Guides

Hope they had their outfitter permits Ranger Dick might hae got them. Monetary gain apprently is not a consideration for requiring a permit. I had a group of 11 get kicked out of the Pemi by said ranger ( WE were 1 over the limit).

 

[David Metsky]

Hope they had their outfitter permits Ranger Dick might hae got them.

Yes, all AMC leaders have WMNF Guide Permits. We're fine in the Wilderness Areas with groups of 10.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

My suspicion is that AMC leaders are not guides - no money changes hands - and thus they are allowed to lead trips on Wilderness hikes. Otherwise the AMC could never advertise a whole bunch of trips.

Yes, all AMC leaders have WMNF Guide Permits. We're fine in the Wilderness Areas with groups of 10.

Or, they could have the guide permits I suppose How does this jive with the off-trail comment by Roy? OH is officially off trail even when you follow the slide / herd path, is it not?

Tim

 

[B the Hiker]

Dug, I'm sorry, but we looked nothing like Mallory's Everest expedition: there was no a single six foot long wooden ice ax or knee-high pair of wool socks in the group!

Speaking of guide cards. A couple of years ago I went through Mountain Leadership School for my vacation, and while I was there, I learned that the following year would be the fiftieth anniversary. Being a political historian, I figured I would write a piece for Appalachia about MLS fifty years ago and today (which I did). The interesting thing is that fifty years ago, the Forest Service sent its new members through MLS. Okay, so fifty years later, we're setting off down from the Lincoln Woods parking lot and meet up with a ranger. Our two instructors tell him we're an MLS group, thinking he would start up a nice conversation or something. Instead he said, "Oh, so then show me your guide cards!"

Things have changed over the years...


Brian

 

[David Metsky]

How does this jive with the off-trail comment by Roy?

Don't know. We've been assured by rangers and the AMC that we're fine leading trips in Wilderness Areas, so that's enough for me.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Or, they could have the guide permits I suppose How does this jive with the off-trail comment by Roy? OH is officially off trail even when you follow the slide / herd path, is it not?

Tim

Tim - several summits are off an official trail. N. Kinsman, Wildcat E and OH come immediately to mind - there are probably others.

Some are just a little further off an official trail than others ...

 

[RoySwkr]

Roy - can you cite a readily-available document online somewhere?

The Wilderness section of the Forest Plan on the WMNF site

If you want the page numbers look for one of my previous posts, I have suggested that the moderators make it a sticky because it comes up so often but they won't bite

Lest anyone is confused, I'm not suggesting that we throw HE in the pokey - rather it's an example of some of the stupid Wilderness guidelines that were snuck in without anyone noticing and would not have been approved if they had

Tim - several summits are off an official trail. N. Kinsman, Wildcat E and OH come immediately to mind - there are probably others.

Some are just a little further off an official trail than others ...

It is the off-trail zone in Wilderness that affects the group size of 4 and the guide permits

There are 2 4k that are maybe over 500' off an official trail in Wilderness - Owls Head and Isolation

 

[bryan]

There are 2 4k that are maybe over 500' off an official trail in Wilderness - Owls Head and Isolation

that's interesting about isolation. i always figured the spur was considered official. if that's the case why hasn't the "mount isolation" sign at the junction become part of a put it up, take it down game like has been seen at owlshead? i know the two are very different with regards to length of unofficial path, etc. but wouldn't the principal be the same?
thanks for the info.

bryan