Question about getting to Owls Head

[bikehikeskifish]

Roy,

I can find many references, including this one, which point out the suggested size not exceed 4 in Zone A, but I cannot find anything that requires no more than four (no more than 10, yes), nor can I find anything about no guided trips in Zone A. If they were precluded by law, then the rangers would not allow the AMC leaders into Owl's Head, even with 4, never mind 10, which Dave points out are allowed.

Tim

 

[RoySwkr]

if that's the case why hasn't the "mount isolation" sign at the junction become part of a put it up, take it down game like has been seen at owlshead?

There is a zone map in the Forest Plan that shows what trails they consider official.

The sign does come and go, note that it is not a FS sign. Somewhere is a post by the former adopter of that section of Davis Path who said he was allowed to clear the spur but not put a sign up.

The summit of Isolation may actually be within 500' of the Davis Path, or close enough that the FS can reasonably decide not to enforce the rule. But the ranger doesn't have to go to the summit of Owls Head to arrest you - the middle of the Black Pond bushwhack is also illegal.

nor can I find anything about no guided trips in Zone A.

If I recall correctly, that was in a post by MichaelJ and I'm not sure where he got it

 

[bikehikeskifish]

The summit of Isolation may actually be within 500' of the Davis Path, or close enough that the FS can reasonably decide not to enforce the rule. But the ranger doesn't have to go to the summit of Owls Head to arrest you - the middle of the Black Pond bushwhack is also illegal.

What rule / what grounds for arrest? The only violation I can find support for in this thread and the cited references is for

group size > 10 AND group in Wilderness

which has always been the case in any zone whatsoever. The "new" argument here, which is as yet unsupported by official citation, is for groups < 10, guided groups, or groups going off trail (bushwhacking or following herd paths, spurs, or other unofficial paths.)

Tim

 

[RoySwkr]

The "new" argument here, which is as yet unsupported by official citation, is for groups < 10, guided groups, or groups going off trail (bushwhacking or following herd paths, spurs, or other unofficial paths.)

You will have to ask MJ (or whoever wrote the original note) for citation re guided groups

The size of <= 4 for Zone A is in the Wilderness plan as "suggested", however suggestions have a way of becoming rules.

The plan is quite scary in that the desired condition for Zone A is to rarely meet another group, which was apparently not the case last Saturday and has certainly not been true my last few trips to Owls Head, and if the FS finds the desired condition is not being met they may impose additional rules. Wilderness permits used to be required in the WMNF, imagine what it would be like if the loose-cannon Pemi district ranger decided on a quota of 1 permit per day for Owls Head.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

You will have to ask MJ (or whoever wrote the original note) for citation re guided groups

The size of <= 4 for Zone A is in the Wilderness plan as "suggested", however suggestions have a way of becoming rules.

You wrote the original note, Roy, or at least brought it up originally on this thread. That's why I am asking you for a citation (I cannot find one on my own, either here or on the WMNF site.) MichaelJ - are you reading? Do you have one?

Note that for off-trail hikes in Wilderness, the suggested maximum size is 4, and guided trips aren't allowed at all

If you think this violates safety rules, that's the Forest Plan in action

Tim

 

[MichaelJ]

I don't know about the <4 group size number, but I sure don't think the rangers should be allowing AMC group trips to Owl's Head.

2005 White Mountain National Forest Plan

Chapter 3, Management Area Direction
Section 5.1, Wilderness
Page 3-15

Special Uses—Recreation Specific
S-1 Outfitter/guide permits will be issued only where they are consistent with Wilderness zone descriptions, as described below.

• [size=+1]Because Zone A should have the lowest levels of recreation use and the fewest recreation-related impacts, outfitter/guide use is prohibited in Zone A.[/size]
  
• Because Zone B requires the highest level of primitive camping skills, permits will be issued only to those applicants whose trip leaders have documented certification as Leave No Trace masters or trainers. Since the density of use is low in this zone, the fewest number of permits will be issued.
  
• To prevent proliferation of campsites beyond established standards, outfitter/guide permits for overnight use in Zone C will be limited to designated or established campsites. Permits for day use will be issued only if that use is consistent with zone standards. To keep use within expected levels, this zone should have the next fewest permits issued.
  
• To protect adjacent areas and to minimize proliferation of campsites beyond established standards, permits for overnight use in Zone D will be limited to designated or established campsites. Permits for day use will be issued only if that use is consistent with zone standards. Because this zone has the greatest concentration of campsites and can accommodate the highest number of users, this zone should have the highest number of outfitter/guide permits.

 

[dug]

Not the first time the AMC, as Stewards of the Mountains, and Wilderness regulations differ. Not the last, either....

But, more serious question...after the assault on this little bump in the woods was completed, was the trail a winding, single track trail after? Makes skiing that route a death trip.

 

[MadRiver]

The sign does come and go, note that it is not a FS sign. Somewhere is a post by the former adopter of that section of Davis Path who said he was allowed to clear the spur but not put a sign up.

I was the maintainer in question. I was allowed to brush the trail and the spur, but I could not blaze. The reason why the sign for the summit was constantly removed was because it did not conform to the wilderness standards for signs, which is plain carved wood with no paint, mileage or other insignias. There is a sign marking the Davis Path about 20 yards from the spur that does conform, so it has remained. When I did Isolation last winter there was a sign for the summit that looked like it met the wilderness requirements, so I would be curious if it is still there.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

When I did Isolation last winter there was a sign for the summit that looked like it met the wilderness requirements, so I would be curious if it is still there.

Sign was there on 8/16/2009 and 12/24/2009.

Tim

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I don't know about the <4 group size number, but I sure don't think the rangers should be allowing AMC group trips to Owl's Head.

Because Zone A should have the lowest levels of recreation use and the fewest recreation-related impacts, outfitter/guide use is prohibited in Zone A.

Thank you! I find this here:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/whi...documents/PLAN_PDF/0300_PLAN_ma_direction.pdf

Strangely enough, it is not under the Wilderness appendix, which is the place I was drawn to based on the table of contents.

Per Dave, they do allow the AMC to lead groups of 10 in this area.

Tim

 

[bikehikeskifish]

But, more serious question...after the assault on this little bump in the woods was completed, was the trail a winding, single track trail after? Makes skiing that route a death trip.

Of course there is a winding single track. The outcome is no different then if 4 people per day went over 6 consecutive (snowless) days. Ain't nobody gonna break out a new route when a good one already exists.

I suppose they would rather we didn't follow the existing skidder road and gully too.

Tim

 

[David Metsky]

I know all Boston Chapter trips are required to file a trip report with the WMNF listing destination, trails used, and # of participants for all trips in the National Forest. I assume NH Chapter does the same thing as it's part of the requirement for the guide cards.

There have been many trips reports filed in the past 4 years about groups greater than 4 going to Owl's Head and we haven't heard anything back about the rangers having a problem with it. Reading the Forest Plan I could see that it could be an issue, but the WMNF Rangers have all the information they need to let us know if the AMC volunteer led trips are doing something wrong and they haven't said anything yet.

 

[jniehof]

My understanding is that AMC volunteer-led chapter trips do not meet the requirements for "guide/outfitter" use. However, so as not to have trailside legal discussions regarding that line, and to provide the USFS with usage information, the AMC participates in the program. After every AMC trip the leader reports in number of people, destination, and trails used. (I thought we were also supposed to report whether we used any designated Wilderness, but if so, I have at least one deficient report in my history.) I believe that information is forwarded to the WMNF, at least in aggregate, so they are well aware that the AMC is leading trips to Owl's Head.

The Forest Plan definition of "guide" is "Providing services or assistance ... for pecuniary remuneration (monetary reward) or other gain." "Outfitter" is "Providing through rental or livery ... supplies or equipment, for pecuniary remuneration (monetary reward) or other gain."

 

[dug]

Of course there is a winding single track. The outcome is no different then if 4 people per day went over 6 consecutive (snowless) days. Ain't nobody gonna break out a new route when a good one already exists.

I suppose they would rather we didn't follow the existing skidder road and gully too.

Tim

Sounds crazy, but honestly I do try to widen the track when I can. Shoot, with 17 people if everyone took every few strides the track would be 3X as wide. Just enough so I can turn my skis a little bit. Nothing worse than standing in a 2'-wide icy luge run. Now, if it's powder when I go, then it's not a big deal. But, once the hardpack settles it's there for the winter.

 

[dug]

That is interesting that, as it is understood, the USFS is notified of the trip. I would be curious if it is a form that you enter the trails to be used. i.e. Lincoln Woods, Black Pond Trail, Lincoln Woods. What would you fill out for the rest? Black Pond Bushwack? Brutus Bushwack? It could easily slide by the USFS?

Not being sarcastic (in this instance), just curious.

 

[Mike P.]

My understanding is that AMC volunteer-led chapter trips do not meet the requirements for "guide/outfitter" use. However, so as not to have trailside legal discussions regarding that line, and to provide the USFS with usage information, the AMC participates in the program. After every AMC trip the leader reports in number of people, destination, and trails used. (I thought we were also supposed to report whether we used any designated Wilderness, but if so, I have at least one deficient report in my history.) I believe that information is forwarded to the WMNF, at least in aggregate, so they are well aware that the AMC is leading trips to Owl's Head.

The Forest Plan definition of "guide" is "Providing services or assistance ... for pecuniary remuneration (monetary reward) or other gain." "Outfitter" is "Providing through rental or livery ... supplies or equipment, for pecuniary remuneration (monetary reward) or other gain."

That's pretty much how I remembered it from the few school trips my wife & I ran for the middle school. (Even Dave made one trip) We filled out the form the first time & after that it was a non-issue.

 

[David Metsky]

What would you fill out for the rest? Black Pond Bushwack? Brutus Bushwack? It could easily slide by the USFS?

I can't speak for everyone, but most folks put fairly detailed descriptions of the bushwacks in their trip reports. The WMNF know exactly what the AMC trips are doing, or at least they have all the information available.

 

[dug]

I can't speak for everyone, but most folks put fairly detailed descriptions of the bushwacks in their trip reports. The WMNF know exactly what the AMC trips are doing, or at least they have all the information available.

Thank you.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I know all Boston Chapter trips are required to file a trip report with the WMNF listing destination, trails used, and # of participants for all trips in the National Forest. I assume NH Chapter does the same thing as it's part of the requirement for the guide cards.

It's a requirement in the NH Chapter as well. It's been awhile since I filled one out, but unless something is changed - copies of the USFS form is emailed to the USFS and a copy to a chapter person who monitors compliance with the requirement. The form itself doesn't ask much - date, trail, # of hikers, but no real details are required.

 

[dug]

It's a requirement in the NH Chapter as well. It's been awhile since I filled one out, but unless something is changed - copies of the USFS form is emailed to the USFS and a copy to a chapter person who monitors compliance with the requirement. The form itself doesn't ask much - date, trail, # of hikers, but no real details are required.

I guess that sums up my question. If it is lacking the necessary detail, one could easily bypass the part where the group is bushwacking in a Wilderness Zone 'A'. I'm not saying intentionally be deceitful, but if the USFS doesn't ask the question... So, while this may (or may not, I'm no lawyer) be in violation of their Wilderness rules, I don't understand how'd they catch it if they don't ask - short of standing there at the terminus of the Black Pond Trail?