What about DEET?

[Oldsmores]

...Just don't pick your nose after spreading DEET with your hands!

Which begs the question: When should you pick your nose?

 

[DougPaul]

Repel makes a lemon eucalyptus in a pump spray bottle that we find as effective as deet. No chemicals, and you both smell better when you get in the bags.

If there were no chemicals, then it would be pure water. Actually water is a chemical, so there really wouldn't be anything in it...

IIRC, tests have generally shown it to be less effective or shorter lasting than DEET.

I wonder if bears like lemon flavor?

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

And Doug.... I know you're the type of guy wo WILL perform this experiment.(unless you're a vampire)

I think I'll go sharpen my teeth...

Doug

 

[Quietman]

Which begs the question: When should you pick your nose?

When the snot rocket method doesn't work!

To stay on topic, I picked up one of the Bug Zapper Rackets that were discussed on a previous bug thread and while it's not really practical for hiking, it is great fun to watch annoying bugs disappear in a flash! Haven't used it on humans, yet........

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Oh yeah.... you should see what DEET covered hands do to condoms.

OMG! I don't even want to know how you came by that bit of knowledge.

If you think about it.... the time you're using one is a time that you are potentially quite vulnerable to bug bites.

 

[Seeker]

I love DEET! And I disagree with this comment of Peakbagger:

When I see people using a spray can to apply it, it pretty obvious that they are overapplying it. The recomended application is just a couple of small drops for ones legs and arms and maybe one more for the face and neck. Unlike sunscreen, more is not better. A 1 ounce container used properly should last the average weekend warrior years. I used to do surveying years ago for 5 days a week 8 hours per day and about 3 -1 ounce containers would last a summer season (I would normally misplace them before they were empty).

My experience is that the bugs will find the places I miss and nail me there. If I miss the back of my arm--ZAP. If I don't wear a hat to cover my part--ZAP. If I miss the back of my neck--ZAP. I don't believe it 100% DEET, but I do believe in full coverage!

 

[Little Rickie]

In spite of all the tests which show that DEET is safe, some people still wonder about putting something that readily melts plastics on their skin... even in small quantities.

Oh yeah.... you should see what DEET covered hands do to condoms.

You're the best!

 

[Claude]

Maybe DEET is not that safe

Here is an interesting article on DEET: Evidence for inhibition of cholinesterases in insect and mammalian nervous systems by the insect repellent deet.
These findings question the safety of deet, particularly in combination with other chemicals, and they highlight the importance of a multidisciplinary approach to the development of safer insect repellents for use in public health.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/7/47/abstract

Claude

 

[Stash]

Here is an interesting article on DEET: Evidence for inhibition of cholinesterases in insect and mammalian nervous systems by the insect repellent deet.
These findings question the safety of deet, particularly in combination with other chemicals, and they highlight the importance of a multidisciplinary approach to the development of safer insect repellents for use in public health.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/7/47/abstract

Claude

...and what's cholinesterases?

 

[Claude]

cholinesterase: An enzyme found in animals that regulates nerve impulses.

 

[Trainwreck]

Bug Zapper Rackets[/URL] that were discussed on a previous bug thread and while it's not really practical for hiking, it is great fun to watch annoying bugs disappear in a flash! Haven't used it on humans, yet........

Tons of entertaining fun!!!

On the subject for DEET.: excellent nail-polish remover.

 

[DougPaul]

Here is an interesting article on DEET: Evidence for inhibition of cholinesterases in insect and mammalian nervous systems by the insect repellent deet.
These findings question the safety of deet, particularly in combination with other chemicals, and they highlight the importance of a multidisciplinary approach to the development of safer insect repellents for use in public health.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/7/47/abstract

Interesting. (Read the full paper and even understood a bit of it. ) A mechanism by which DEET might affect insects and mammals.

However, the epidemiological evidence still shows very low risk in humans for normal use. Which, of course, must be balanced against the risk of not protecting oneself from insects and the diseases that they can spread.

Doug

 

[sardog1]

Thanks, Claude! As a DEET fan, I'm keenly interested of course.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

However, the epidemiological evidence still shows very low risk in humans for normal use. Which, of course, must be balanced against the risk of not protecting oneself from insects and the diseases that they can spread.

Doug

I absolutely agree. While there may be a mechanism, under the right conditions, that might cause harm. There has been around 8,000,000,000 (8 billion) doses of DEET used. It has been in use since the 50's. It is probably one of the most studied chemicals around. We know the kind of damage done to people by mosquitoes and other insects around the world and without any questions the use of DEET prevents a lot of diseases from being transmitted to people that can kill them or make them tremendously sick. It is always a risk versus benefit equation and there is little evidence that in real world use it causes injury and its actual effectiveness is unquestioned.

Personally, as with anything that I apply to my skin/ingest/or need injected. I only use it when I need it, and then only in the smallest effective dose I can get away with but, when I need to use DEET nothing else will do. And I have tried them all. 33% DEET works great for me.

FWIW,
Keith

 

[TCD]

I agree also. I use DEET and I never worry about it.

Cholinesterase inhibition is a short term, not a cumulative phenomenon (acetylcholine and cholinesterase are constantly being manufactured and depleted in the synapses). Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter which transmits nerve impulses from one neuron to another across the synapse. When the job is done, cholinesterase steps in and decomposes the acetylcholine. So it's a balancing act. To grossly oversimplify, if you inhibit cholinesterase, acetylcholine will not be depleted, and nerves will "fire" repeatedly and unnecessarily. This is how the common nerve gases, such as Sarin, work. The symptomic effect is a prompt "Parkinson's like" paralysis.

If you have symptoms like that, I would certainly cut down on the DEET.

TCD

 

[DougPaul]

If you have symptoms like that, I would certainly cut down on the DEET.

Or the caffeine...

Doug

 

[Little Rickie]

I now have and used 100% deet, great stuff but I also have less potent stuff, 100% works better. Like everything in life...you can use it or abuse it. I don't see a clear right or wrong on this issue, just strong opinions.

 

[John H Swanson]

I love DEET! And I disagree with this comment of Peakbagger:




My experience is that the bugs will find the places I miss and nail me there. If I miss the back of my arm--ZAP. If I don't wear a hat to cover my part--ZAP. If I miss the back of my neck--ZAP. I don't believe it 100% DEET, but I do believe in full coverage!

I concur. For me aerosols work best to get good coverage. I apply aerosol 20% at the car and carry 100% liquid in a small bottle and apply sparingly using a small cloth to spread it over most exposed surfaces (except upper face). Even after the obviously liquid is gone, it only takes a trace in the cloth to cover the skin and effectively block them.

If I apply and it gets into my eyes, nose or mouth then it goes into the blood stream and I feel a metaboilic change....then I read the label. Obviously applying it to you forehead and sweating will cause this.

 

[hikerbrian]

Here is an interesting article on DEET: Evidence for inhibition of cholinesterases in insect and mammalian nervous systems by the insect repellent deet.
These findings question the safety of deet, particularly in combination with other chemicals, and they highlight the importance of a multidisciplinary approach to the development of safer insect repellents for use in public health.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/7/47/abstract

Claude

If you are really interested in digging below the surface in this paper, let me offer a few points. First, the paper does not question the safety of DEET. It shows one possible receptor for DEET in humans; the binding between DEET and this receptor is EXTREMELY weak. Second, most chemists would consider DEET to be a very simple molecule. Generally speaking, simple molecules are promiscuous molecules: they bind to nothing at low dose, and everything at high dose. At the concentrations they used in the paper, I would guess that DEET would show binding to MANY receptors. This is inconsequential because the concentrations used in the study could NEVER be achieved in a person under normal circumstances. A binding constant of 500 micromolar (from the paper) is roughly 10,000 times less potent than what most pharmaceutical scientists would consider a starting point for interesting activity. To make an analogy, ibuprofen has some level of acute toxicity. But if that toxicity becomes significant at 10,000 times the normal dose, it's not something I'd worry about, because it's not possible for me to ingest 20,000 tablets of ibuprofen. (Note: I'm just making an analogy, I have no idea what the acute toxicity of ibuprofen is.) Third, the authors SPECULATE (wildly, I might add) a possible interaction between DEET and cholinesterase inhibitors, and suggest that more studies are needed. I disagree. If cases of acute toxicity towards DEET were common (they are EXTREMELY rare), I would say, yes, we should try and understand its mechanism of toxicity. But these cases are so rare and the circumstances so varied, I think it highly unlikely that any general trends will be realized. It's a waste of time. We already have all of the clinical data we could ever need.

Finally, any good solvent will "melt" plastic (not really melting, actually dissolving). Not really indicative of toxicity, but I do keep my ropes away from the stuff. And I promise that lemon eucalyptus spray contains chemicals. Many chemicals. "Natural" is not equal to "safe". Aconitine, for example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconitine), is available at many herbal medicine shops. Yikes.

 

[Stash]

...Third, the authors SPECULATE (wildly, I might add) a possible interaction between DEET and cholinesterase inhibitors, and suggest that more studies are needed.

If I did research for a living I'd suggest that more studies are needed on the toxicity of water. You do that enough and someone agrees. That's called job security.