White Mountain Parking Fee Changes for 2010

[bikehikeskifish]

Would you pay for 12-point crampons with only 4 points? No, of course not. Why should you have to pay to park in a lot which provides 2 of the 6 required amenities? Why do we get fined for "breaking" the law when they can fine us without providing the six amenities required by that law? 19MBT is still a fee lot, although it is taped up right now, and it's pretty clear there is insufficient security at that lot.

It's not the money, it's the principle.
Tim

p.s. I have ONE pack, ONE pair of summer boots, ONE pair of winter boots, and most of my outer layers do double or triple duty with cycling and skiing.

 

[Stash]

Why do we get fined for "breaking" the law when they can fine us without providing the six amenities required by that law?
It's not the money, it's the principle.

Taking the principle one futher. Do you send a fine to the police if you exceed 65 on 93, even if they don't catch you?

 

[stocks]

i think paying for parking is a joke. i dont need anyone to fix the trail so there stairs going up the trail. and to fine some 1 if they dont have cash or the right change is a joke. i feel they should have a donation box, and to fine someone 75$ is a somthing out of this world. bikehikeskifish i agree with you

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Taking the principle one futher. Do you send a fine to the police if you exceed 65 on 93, even if they don't catch you?

Not the same - the law says the speed limit is 65 - If I break 65, I should be fined. Reread post #14 in this thread (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showpost.php?p=302275&postcount=14) and you'll see the law, quoted from the WMNF web site, says they must provide six amenities in order to charge a fee. Lincoln Woods and Mount Clinton are pretty much the only ones that have all six, and the latter does not demonstrate security to me, while Lincoln Woods would appear to.

Tim

 

[Stash]

Not the same - the law says the speed limit is 65 - If I break 65, I should be fined. Reread post #14 in this thread (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showpost.php?p=302275&postcount=14) and you'll see the law, quoted from the WMNF web site, says they must provide six amenities in order to charge a fee. Lincoln Woods and Mount Clinton are pretty much the only ones that have all six, and the latter does not demonstrate security to me, while Lincoln Woods would appear to.

Tim

Interpreting letter of the law you are correct and there's no argument there.

I tend toward intent of any program, rather than the letter of the law. So far it's worked well for me. Driving at a reasonable speed to maintain control and avoid harming others; not because I'll get fined if I don't. Paying the fees to provide funding for overall activities. If an area doesn't meet the letter of some written document I'm not overly concerned. If I can get my car off the road to avoid blocking the road I'm happy.

And I'd rather not be in a place where there's a guard posted to stop the break-ins. When a lot known to be filled with cars that might have "good stuff" in them is reasonably near a populated area that's about the only way to stop the problem. That and doing everything I can to reduce the attraction by leaving nothing in the car to attract them.

 

[RoySwkr]

Lincoln Woods and Mount Clinton are pretty much the only ones that have all six, and the latter does not demonstrate security to me, while Lincoln Woods would appear to.

Lincoln Woods has been a high break-in area in the past

Kinsman Notch has at least 5, not sure about sign, but restroom and trash removal are probably the greatest expense

 

[roadtripper]

Anything that serves as a hindrance to getting people outside, no matter the dollar amount, is a bad thing in my opinion. For example, $5 is very steep to a low-income family who just paid $40 in gas to drive to the White Mountains.

I would LOVE to audit the entire parking fee program. I guarantee that administrative costs of running the program end up being 1/2 or even 2/3 of the $5 (salaries, taxes, fringe benefits, overhead, periodic reviews of the program/public input, parking lot billboards, equipment/truck, gas for vehicles, public awareness of fee programs, distribution of parking passes to vendors, collection of money from vendors, accounting for the program, etc.).

 

[Tony]

Well I agree but...

Hmmm. Outrage over a fine for not paying the posted fee and over the existance of the fee to begin with because a place might not have a bunch of fancy amenities. This from a group willing to pay huge sums of money for 6 pairs of fancy hiking boots, 12 packs, countless specialy gloves and jackets to cover any conditions, a trip to some mountain on the other side of the world for the experience and a fee to some company so you can post pictures of all the adventures.

My priorities must be totally screwed up.

I can afford to pay and I do. And I also feel I should pay even if WMNF people are not living up to their end of the bargain at all times with the services they provide, because I am well aware that the government is underfunding them. So my ideal would be that a more enlightened government support of parks and outdoor recreation - one less B-1 bomber would do it - and no fees for anyone. I certainly don't want to see hiking become an elite sport for the wealthy.

 

[Billy]

Question: What happens if they give you a $75 ticket and you don't pay it? Not advocating for or against doing that..... just wondering.

 

[bobandgeri]

Take a look at Appendix A in the following doc on their site:

http://www.fs.fed.us/passespermits/docs/final-guidelines.pdf

Several of the six (6) items are only required during the "primary use" season and can be removed at other times. Although many of us on this site use the trailheads year round, we all know that there are significantly less people out there in the Winter versus the Summer which is probably the primary use season by their definition.

Per the definition a port-a-potty is a Permanent Toilet Facility.

Per the definition the police or FS officers doing a regular check at a site is Security Services.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I tend toward intent of any program, rather than the letter of the law. So far it's worked well for me. Driving at a reasonable speed to maintain control and avoid harming others; not because I'll get fined if I don't. Paying the fees to provide funding for overall activities. If an area doesn't meet the letter of some written document I'm not overly concerned. If I can get my car off the road to avoid blocking the road I'm happy.

Would you be upset if you were going at or below the posted speed limit and were written a ticket because the officer thought you were going too fast? I would. There is a reason laws are written so thoroughly. The intent of the IRS Tax Code is to fund the government -- do you send extra money?

In the interest of full disclosure, it is worth the money to me to buy the parking pass so I do not need to spend any time or energy figuring out if I need to pay, having the right amount, hoping there are envelopes, signs not buried, etc.

I have never seen any potty facility beyond the woods at 19 MBT - perm or porta.

Tim

 

[bobandgeri]

FYI - this is the link to the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act Second Triennial Report to Congress 2009

http://www.fs.fed.us/passespermits/docs/accomps/wo-rpt-congress/2009-00-rea-triennial-report.pdf

It's a 70 page doc that gives examples of the work done with the money collected by the Recreation Fee Program.

 

[Fisher Cat]

It's a 70 page doc that gives examples of the work done with the money collected by the Recreation Fee Program.

Thanks for the link, but I think I'll pay someone to read those 70 pages for me.

 

[sierra]

can they enforce the fine if you dont pay and how?

 

[Stash]

Would you be upset if you were going at or below the posted speed limit and were written a ticket because the officer thought you were going too fast? I would. There is a reason laws are written so thoroughly. The intent of the IRS Tax Code is to fund the government -- do you send extra money?

It's my belief that the laws are written in such detail because there are always people trying to find a way to get around them. If we all tried to understand the intent and follow that we'd need a whole lot less detail and a whole lot less expense to ourselves to manage that detail.

I follow the intent of laws and don't have issues. Never a ticket in 30-something years of driving. Is it possible that a police officer having a really bad day could find something wrong and pull me over but I like to believe that most people are above that.

I don't push things with my taxes and have yet to have an issue.

It takes me a little longer to get from point A to point B and, though I could probably save a few pennies on my taxes by learning all the little details and rule changes, I don't see it as worth the hassle. These things allow me to enjoy life a bit more without being worried about getting my money's worth.

My belief is that most people in the Forest Service and other agencies are trying to do their jobs the best they can, given the amount of bureaucracy they have to deal with.

 

[KRobi]

Until someone does get fined and takes it to court the answer to what is legal or not may be like that of the eternal question, "how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?" The world may never know! I do need to know if the 19MBT fee tube is taped over? Due to the break ins recently I plan on taking the car my son normally drives (oldest, least valuable) when I do an overnight next Wed. at Carter Notch Hut. My other two cars have passes but this one doesn't. Will bring the 3 bucks but seeing I laid out the 25 would rather not pay again.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I don't push things with my taxes and have yet to have an issue.

Yes or no: Do you send in any more money than you have to (more money then the little box at the bottom of the 1040)?

Tim

 

[Stash]

Yes or no: Do you send in any more money than you have to (more money then the little box at the bottom of the 1040)?

Tim

Nope! I don't work hard to fight giving more and I don't work hard to give extra. I can't imagine what that would do to the system with all those rules. They wouldn't know where to put it.

I'm sure this somehow relates to the whole $3 - $75 thing but my view on it is that the whole money thing doesn't much matter. What matters to me is that I'll be hiking this weekend with my car parked wherever with its sticker.

 

[David Metsky]

Moderator Note
The stickers are non-transferable. Please don't post suggestions on how to break the law.

 

[MadRiver]

Moderator Note
The stickers are non-transferable. Please don't post suggestions on how to break the law.

My bad, didn't realize that!