Whole backpack left in the last col: please don’t.

[Kevin Rooney]

Another comment on using the victim's gear -

Most wilderness 1st aid/training programs will urge you to use the victim's gear and clothing first, rather than your own or member's of your party. The primary reasons for this are: 1) the victim's clothing and gear will fit them, and 2) using your own or other member's may put them at risk themselves, and one goal is to prevent additional victims.

There's a tendency to use your own stuff because 1) you know what you have in your pack and its applicability to the situation, and 2) opening up a stranger's pack seems like an invasion of their privacy (and it is).

The old adage "Don't become a victim" begins to break down rather quickly, however, since the act of stopping and providing assistance will inevitably impact on your ability to get down out of the mountains or whatever your destination. And, in reality - no matter how detached we attempt to be, it would be difficult for most people to deny a victim the use of the rescuer's personal clothing or gear in critical situations.

 

[dug]

“Besides, those situations are so rare as to be virtually irrelevant to this discussion”.

Allow me to disagree. My husband and I have wondered the last few years if we attract disaster while winter climbing. Twice we had to get distressed climbers out of the woods, once all the way from Allen summit ridge and another time from Blueberry lean-to till the winter parking. Both times it was very scary and all about will power but there is no question that you just do what’s needed without even thinking about yourself. You become one with the person in need and go from there. Countless other times we gladly distributed food, drink, clothes and whatever else we always bring along and rarely if ever use for ourselves. There were times we wished we had performed a backpack inspection before leaving the trailhead... if, if,...

What would your "inspection" reveal? What would you do or say if something wasn't up to your standards? What are your standards? One fleece? Two fleece? 10-point crampons? 12-point? Stabilicers? Headlamp? Extra batteries? Cell phone

This is just getting more and more vague. There is still too much opinion being imparted as fact. Always does whenever someone tries to say what is the "correct" way to hike.

 

[BlackSpruce]

"What your "inspection" reveal?"

Sorry, I was wrongfully, I realize now, trying to bring humor to the subject. Nevertheless one time during a -20F temperature hike we found out that our hiking partner to make it easier had much less than bare minimum for the outing of the day.

 

[David Metsky]

Nevertheless one time during a -20F temperature hike we found out that our hiking partner to make it easier had much less than bare minimum for the outing of the day.

Depending on the trip, a trailhead inspection of participant's packs can be a very good idea. When I'm leading trips for the AMC I definitely go over acceptable gear before the trip starts and will ask to see things that people have brought if there's any questions. Yes, insufficient gear is reason for removing people from trips, even if it means saying "No" at the trailhead.

But those are organized outings with a designated leader and an assumption of experience and risk by the participants. A trip with people I know and have hiked with would be very different. If I were hiking with a newbie I certainly would go over the gear and answer questions if needed. I usually have extras in the car to distribute at the trailhead. As has been said many times in this thread, different situations will lead to different decisions.

 

[Neil]

My wife often takes inexperienced colleagues and friends hiking in the Adirondacks and she has excellent leadership skills. She emails pack lists and talks to her débutantes on the phone before the hike etc.

On a hot day she told her companion to bring 3 liters of water. The companion, an experienced runner, thought the water was to have in the car after the hike so she only carried half a liter in her pack.

 

[randomscooter]

What would your "inspection" reveal? What would you do or say if something wasn't up to your standards? What are your standards? One fleece? Two fleece? 10-point crampons? 12-point? Stabilicers? Headlamp? Extra batteries? Cell phone

This is just getting more and more vague. There is still too much opinion being imparted as fact. Always does whenever someone tries to say what is the "correct" way to hike.

Well, hang on there a minute. I don't think BlackSpruce was saying she wouldn't allow someone to go for their own hike with whatever gear they chose, just that she herself wouldn't want to team up with them and find out "too late" that they weren't prepared to HER level of satisfaction. That's perfectly reasonable. One good example was made several posts ago by a guy (can't remember the name) about never hiking with anyone that carried a hydration bladder in winter. I agree with BlackSpruce completely (even if she did say it partly in the spirit of humor). Why would I partner up with some unknown who thinks it's just fine to do the Great Range with a pint of cold water and no spare gloves? How would I know that if I didn't ask him what he was carrying?

 

[Maddy]

Perhaps this was intended as tongue in cheek, and anyways I'm not really pointing at any particular person, but would like to explore the attitude it portrays. The statement indicates that a decision (course of action) has been made (before even leaving home) for an incident which has not yet occurred. Do you REALLY know already what you'll do if and when you do encounter a disabled hiker? This, as far as I can see, is precisely the same logic that leads to the statement "I will carry all my gear for every step of every hike." It's an intriguing and challenging part of the game (gasp, how dare I consider this to be a game!!) to read the signs and adapt to them on the fly. We are human beings, not preprogrammed machines that faithfully follow a limited set of instructions but can't ever learn to work outside those limits.

To address Randomscooter's concerns, my statement was not made "tongue in cheek".
YES, I do carry my gear every step of every hike. Very experienced people taught me to do it this way, and I now have enough experience to appreciate that they gave me good sound advice.
The next concern is that I have made a decision (even before leaving home) for an incident which has not yet occurred.
This is true. It comes from years of study and assessing patients conditions. You may not believe it, but I REALLY do know what I will do (head to foot) if I encounter a disabled hiker.

Maddy, I don't know you but I seriously doubt you'll now pass gleefully by the trail needy. It's just human nature..

I just want to clear up a misconception from my post.
For me, helping the needy goes far beyond human nature. It was my life's work. I worked in an ICU in a trauma center for years.
Being called upon to help a victim in the field is very different that helping the same victim in a hospital setting where everything you might need is readily available to you.
Forestnome helped me to understand that in a hiking situation, I do not need to give up all my emergency gear to someone who has little or none because they made a personal decision to leave it behind.
His explanation made perfect sense to me and helped me to look at things in a more realistic way. I can do all I can within reason to help the injured party but I am not required to become the "second" victim.
Thus my statement that I have "no more guilt, that I know exactly what I have to do, and I no longer have to debate this issue."

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I haven’t’ read the entire thread but I think I get the gist.

What I can tell you is this. You are certainly not required to carry everything to the peak but, if I run across you and I am not on a SAR mission looking for you and you are in desperate need of help this is what will happen. I will do everything I can for you, as always, no matter what. I will start by using everything at my disposal that you have in your pack and on your person. Tents, tent poles, tarps, fleece etc. If you give me permission to help I will cut, bend, spin and mutilate your items into whatever I need to help you as best as I am capable. If I need more I will look at what the people in your group are carrying and willing to part with. That is after watching what I have just done to your stuff. If I need more than I will look at what Mother Nature can provide. If I still need more than I will look at what I am carrying and may use to help you. Two things that I will say about this and both have already been said. This is your emergency, not mine, and it will not become my emergency if I can prevent it which may include giving you nothing of mine and even leaving you if necessary. No rescuer is under any obligation to die with their patient and it is actually considered bad form in the emergency medicine/SAR community. First rule of emergency medicine is, everyone together: “Is the scene safe?” If it isn’t don’t enter. If it becomes unsafe get out. With your patient if you can but your first obligation is to get yourself to safety, second your crew, third your patient.

If I think I can get away by giving you my spare fleece and tarp and making you a hypothermia wrap I will. If instead I think I will need my fleece and I need to put the tarp up to keep both of us out of the inclement weather then that’s what I’ll do. Not as good for you but I am under no obligation to become de-animated because of your misfortune or poor planning. Of course on the other hand if you have a tarp and extra fleece in your pack I will make you such a hypothermia wrap you’ll be bitching you are too warm.


Just my $.02,
Keith

 

[forestgnome]

...and Keith and Maddy are obviously caring people; their lives are helping injured people and they, nor I, are being callous when we describe this reality.

Weather you expect it or not, good people in the mountains are going to help you if you are injured. If we are more prepared, and we are not as expert as Keith to understand where to draw the line to avoid putting ourselves in danger because of your problem, it could get ugly for us. Keith's post is a very important nugget of knowledge. I know it would be hard for me to not go to some extreme lengths to help an injured hiker, especially if it's a lady, child, or older person.

happy trails

 

[kmac]

I have to admit that I have stashed my pack to avoid carrying my "35" pound pack up to the summit. Ask me if I've been totally comfortable with doing this, and my honest answer would be no.
Will I think twice about doing this in the future, yes.
Thanks Blackspruce
kmac

 

[NewHampshire]

We backpacked into Unknown Pond this past fall. I dropped my pack and set up camp and then took a small fanny pack with 2 liters of water, a camera and hat and gloves. From there it was all the way to Cabot and back (I had forgotten to take my headlamp with me from camp, but this was not a problem since I knew I could pace myself to be back before sunset and my fellow companions were behind me all the way of the trip.) Did I feel uncomfortable leaving my pack and the vast amjority of equipment behind (including my first aid kit)? No. But that is because I knew my capabilities, limitations, I knew what the weather was like and going to be......basically I made a judgement call on all the given information and conditons of the moment. Not a single thing went wrong, I got to Cabot and back well before the sun went down and all was good. Would I do it again? Given the circumstances at the time......yes. Change of variables? Well it will depend on what changed. But overall I feel that I did better in this case having dropped pack and went fast and light (and believe me, this is coming from a guy who ALWAYS carrys for the "worst case".....rain/windgear stay in the pack year round cloudless skie and sun or not, I carry a rather gnarly first aid kit/survival kit, fleece gloves, hat fleece jacket, the whle shebang.....translation being I am not normally a "fast and light kind of guy.") Its not something I will take to doing often, but for me I can see where dropping pack can be advantageous.

Brian

 

[giggy]

I see an interesting pattern here - based on folks I know and what I can deduce, it looks to me like the dayhikers carry the farm and folks that are into backpacking, extended longer type hikes, mountaineering, climbing, etc save weight and energy when possible, etc.. - fast and light, speed is safety.

These are both legitimate schools of thought and both have pros and cons
I also see that most people that are into the fast and light catagory can respect the other POV for the most part - where as the folks that insist on bringing 2 tents, 3 sleeping bags, 4 changes of clothes (in case 3 get wet before noon) and 5 days worth of food for a dayhike get pretty defensive on the issue and it always ends up as - "well don't count on me" to give you my gear if I run into to you. Pretty sure the fast and light folks don't count on anything as we assess the risk and are typically willing to deal with that risk.

All I can say is that I have and I will again drop pack on summit spur paths if the situation allows for it.

I also don't see the harm if its a nice winter day with little wind and a nice big fat high pressure system over northern NH of dropping pack at t-junction, madison hut, jefferson loop trail and tagging those summits.

maybe its old school vs new school and both are right.

 

[nartreb]

Wow, this thread is still going?

When your pack contains a tent, sleeping bag, several days of food [in a critterproof container of course], stove, etc, you'd be nuts not to drop it before a summit spur. Likewise if you're carrying rope and associated gear, or skis or a snowboard.

If the spur will take more than a few minutes, I usually bring an extra jacket with me, with a few small items in the pockets (water, food, headlamp, hat, gloves). But insisting on always carrying a full pack to the summit makes as much sense as always packing all the hiking gear I own into the car, or insisting that if I've brought gear in the car then it has to go into my backpack. Carry what you feel comfortable with given what you know about the weather and the trail, end of story.

 

[randomscooter]

When your pack contains a tent, sleeping bag, several days of food [in a critterproof container of course], stove, etc, you'd be nuts not to drop it before a summit spur. Likewise if you're carrying rope and associated gear, or skis or a snowboard.

Sounds like you're concern here is thievery/vandalism? Generally the further I get from the trailhead the less apprehensive I am about this. If you're concerned about the critters getting into things, that's a different story. I worry about that every time, although so far it hasn't happened.

If the spur will take more than a few minutes, I usually bring an extra jacket with me, with a few small items in the pockets (water, food, headlamp, hat, gloves). But insisting on always carrying a full pack to the summit makes as much sense as always packing all the hiking gear I own into the car, or insisting that if I've brought gear in the car then it has to go into my backpack. Carry what you feel comfortable with given what you know about the weather and the trail, end of story.

I hear ya, but it DOES make sense for the "carry it all" folks. They aren't "nuts" anymore than you or me, and I think we need to be sure they don't incorrectly think we're attacking their more conservative approach.

When I go for a short hike above my house, summer or winter, I often carry nothing, sometimes a water bottle, or if I plan on hanging out on a knob watching the world go by I might bring a snack too. Although there are admittedly differences, that last 1/2 mile from the col to the summit of a more remote peak is pretty much just a short hike. The fact that it's a short hike that starts in a remote location and in more unforgiving terrain plays some role in what I'll carry, but (to beat a dead horse) not all hikes require my full arsenal, or even a substantial portion of it.

I also see that most people that are into the fast and light catagory can respect the other POV for the most part - where as the folks that insist on bringing 2 tents, 3 sleeping bags, 4 changes of clothes (in case 3 get wet before noon) and 5 days worth of food for a dayhike get pretty defensive on the issue and it always ends up as - "well don't count on me" to give you my gear if I run into to you.

I, coming I guess from the fast and light category, get this same feeling. But I'm not sure if it's real or if it's just me being somewhat sensitive, so I try to avoid (not always successfully) letting it become a factor in my half of the conversation. I tend to think that in general the "carry it all folks" also respect the other (my) POV. I'm just glad there's no trail head (or summit) gestapo checking my pack (or lack thereof). Hope it stays that way.

 

[DrewKnight]

Dirtbag Diaries: Anatomy of an Accident

It might also be interesting if people could post some examples of hikers getting into trouble by making this decision.

Late to the party, as usual, but this thread reminded me of one of my favorite PodCasts, The Dirtbag Diaries. In this episode, the creator gets himself in a world of hurt after a series of minor missteps -- starting with leaving his pack for a the last few hundred feet of a climb:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/thedirtbag/Anatomy_of_an_Accident.mp3

If you haven't checked out
The Dirtbag Diaries -- it's worth a listen. Sometimes the narration style is a little over the top, but the stories are almost always really strong. I bogart the new releases on my iPod for those long nighttime commutes back north, and the creator, Fitz Cahall, usually leaves me thinking.

 

[dug]

Wow, this thread is still going?

When your pack contains a tent, sleeping bag, several days of food [in a critterproof container of course], stove, etc, you'd be nuts not to drop it before a summit spur. Likewise if you're carrying rope and associated gear, or skis or a snowboard.

If the spur will take more than a few minutes, I usually bring an extra jacket with me, with a few small items in the pockets (water, food, headlamp, hat, gloves). But insisting on always carrying a full pack to the summit makes as much sense as always packing all the hiking gear I own into the car, or insisting that if I've brought gear in the car then it has to go into my backpack. Carry what you feel comfortable with given what you know about the weather and the trail, end of story.

I think that was my point from the beginning. The original request was very vague. I do a lot of backpacking, and I won't lug that pig on my back anymore than I need to. It is very common to if I'm not summitting something to leave my pack downhill and just carry my water bag (which will have a headlamp, jacket, gloves, small 1/3 Ridge-Rest, a snack and 1st aid kit. I think more clarity on what "pack" means in the original post would've been helpful

 

[skiguy]

It is very common to if I'm not summitting something to leave my pack downhill and just carry my water bag (which will have a headlamp, jacket, gloves, small 1/3 Ridge-Rest, a snack and 1st aid kit.

What no duct tape and WD 40?...or do you leave that with the PIG?

 

[dug]

What no duct tape and WD 40?...or do you leave that with the PIG?

Funny you say that, but my water bottle has a half-roll of duct tape wrapped around it. Sadly, though, that is usally left behind w/ the pig!! WD-40? That's for home fixes!

 

[BlackSpruce]

"I think more clarity on what "pack" means in the original post would've been helpful". Dug read it again, text doesn't say to bring everything, tents included to the summit. Furthermore I never intended to insult anybody intelligence as I believe that 99% of winter climber are experienced "summer" climbers and certainly don't need to be told in detail what is important and very important.

I will now request the moderators to close this thread. It has been another appreciated learning experience, thanks for everyone input.

Happy Holidays

Christine - 4967W