Whole backpack left in the last col: please don’t.

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

There's an example in Laura and Guy Waterman's book..... recount[ing] a 1968 winter Presidential traverse attempt, where a father (Guy) and his son (Johnny?) leave their packs in the area of Edmands Col before ascending Jefferson "...and they delighted in the freedom of an easy dash uphill without packs and with the wind at their backs."

On their descent, however, the clouds rolled in, the wind picked up, and both became completely disoriented. Complicating matters, the "father" had left his compass in a shirt which was stowed in his pack. They were left to guess on the correct route down, and when finally able to ascertain exactly where they were, realized they were 180 degrees off course, on the north side of the mountain. After a long plod across the Jefferson snowfield, they were eventually reuinited with their by now ice-encrusted packs.

So, there's your example. Now everyone, go out and buy the book from The Mountain Wanderer! Stinkyfeet

Ok, so there we have it, from a most reputable source in the Waterman's. Thanks, Stinkyfeet; I read their Wilderness Ethics and Backcountry (?) Ethics books a long time ago, and had forgotten that story. And, if Guy Waterman could get disoriented in the Whites, anyone can. I agree that one should never leave the map and compass in the "pack left at the col." Although I am a bit confused about the scenario above (leaving packs at Edmands Col, then finding themselves 180 degrees off on the north [south?] side of Jefferson), I get the main point. On the northern Presi's in winter, it is probably a good idea to have all key bearings taped to the back of one's compass.

 

[randomscooter]

I fail to see how leaving your pack in a col, going light and fast for say the last 1/2 mile, will serve you well if you end up lying in the snow with your open tib-fib fracture and can't walk. If you carry emergency gear it should be available to you at all times or it serves no purpose. I don't think not having it readily accessible is the "path to safety".

True enough, "IF you end up lying in the snow with your open tib-fib fracture and can't walk" the emergency gear you left behind does no good. But if you do carry the emergency gear, and IF you end up lying unconscious in the snow, that same gear also does no good. The logic is flawed. It presupposes/contrives the emergency, but doesn't consider whether the action (leaving the pack behind) might in fact prevent the "IF" from happening in the first place. The inter-relation of actions and consequences is not a simple one.

A hiker carries what most of us would consider a normal winter daypack when heading into the Seward Range, but also carries a sleeping bag and bivy that he leaves down low on the mountain. If there is a problem, or if he doesn't finish all three peaks during that day, this gives him additional options. He has carried "emergency gear" but has left it behind, i.e., it is not available at all times. Does that gear NOT still serve a purpose? Is he somehow less safe than the next hiker who carries the identical daypack but doesn't carry any sleeping bag or bivy?

To look at it another way, if when I leave my pack behind for the final push to the summit it serves no purpose, then I should have left my pack at home.

 

[blacknblue]

Reasonable and reasoned risk. These are the key words here.
There are definitely many "paths to safety" but I fail to see how leaving your pack in a col, going light and fast for say the last 1/2 mile, will serve you well...

True, but I don't anybody has suggested that ditching your pack above treeline in the Prezzies in the winter is a good idea. I remembered that story, too, but I think most people recognize that there are a myriad of factors that go into decided whether or not to drop pack. In the case of the father/son on Jefferson -- it was winter, the wind was at their backs (i.e. in their face going down), and they didn't even bring their compass with them. There's a whole bunch of factors that made that a bad decision. The wind could have buried the packs in snow and they wouldn't have been able to find them. My hunch is that if they had dropped pack at the junction of Jeff Loop and Six Husbands Trail, and scrambled up the last twenty yards w/o pack, they wouldn't have made the book. Or if it had been summer. Or if they had been with a group.
It wasn't dropping pack that made it a bad decision, per se; it was the host of other factors.

 

[forestgnome]

Maddy, I generally agree with your point about being more prepared and finding a less prepared, injured hiker. My wife is an EMT, and she has learned the motto "it's not my emergency!". The implication is that the injured person's situation is their problem, not the rescuer's problem. These people dedicate their lives to helping others, but they know to not put themselves in peril for the sake of an injured person.

So, even though you are a kind soul, when you find that immobile hiker in need of more clothing to keep warm because of their injury, and their pack is a mile away, don't do anything to risk your own precious life. Don't change your more careful behavior.

Just my own opinion... I would never leave anything behind because I would want it all if I suffered even a minor injury. Just as importantly, I would never want to limit my options. Leaving something behind would equate to committing to going back in that direction. That is just unacceptable.

But, I couldn't care less if others want to hike Mt. Adams in February without a pack. Nor am I phased when someone tells me not be 10' from a bull moose in October.

happy trails

 

[Rik]

Dr. Dasypodidae said:



There's an example in Laura and Guy Waterman's book Wilderness Ethics (which IMHO--not that I'm telling anyone what to do! --should be required reading for White Mtn. trampers). In the Chapter "Winter Above Treeline," page 183 in my edition, they recount a 1968 winter Presidential traverse attempt, where a father (Guy) and his son (Johnny?) leave their packs in the area of Edmands Col before ascending Jefferson "...and they delighted in the freedom of an easy dash uphill without packs and with the wind at their backs."

On their descent, however, the clouds rolled in, the wind picked up, and both became completely disoriented. Complicating matters, the "father" had left his compass in a shirt which was stowed in his pack. They were left to guess on the correct route down, and when finally able to ascertain exactly where they were, realized they were 180 degrees off course, on the north side of the mountain. After a long plod across the Jefferson snowfield, they were eventually reuinited with their by now ice-encrusted packs.

So, there's your example. Now everyone, go out and buy the book from The Mountain Wanderer!

(FWIW, I think there's a big difference between leaving one's pack above treeline and, say, leaving it at Galehead Hut in order to climb Galehead, but that's just me...)

Stinkyfeet

Sounds like in this example they self rescued? And dropping map and compass is what got them into "trouble". If they had carried their packs but didn't have a map and compass they would have been in the same "trouble"? And the "trouble" ended up being some discomfort? If this is the best example we can come up with I don't find it very compelling.

 

[dr_wu002]

Flawed Logic

I fail to see how leaving your pack in a col, going light and fast for say the last 1/2 mile, will serve you well if you end up lying in the snow with your open tib-fib fracture and can't walk.

If you carry emergency gear it should be available to you at all times or it serves no purpose.

Accidents give no warning and no one is exempt from having one.

All three of these are examples of (several different) logical fallacies which render them invalid as arguments. This is the problem that I have with this discussion. Others have posted quite eloquently but these ideas can easily be attacked and discredited by unsound logical arguments. This entire thread is based on the circular argument that makes the incorrect assumption that dropping your pack leads to a dramatic decrease in safety for all members of this site.

-Dr. Wu

 

[David Metsky]

There are definitely many "paths to safety" but I fail to see how leaving your pack in a col, going light and fast for say the last 1/2 mile, will serve you well if you end up lying in the snow with your open tib-fib fracture and can't walk. If you carry emergency gear it should be available to you at all times or it serves no purpose.

Going light and fast could keep a person alert and rested so they don't fall and have that tib/fib fracture. The extra weight on your back could turn a silly tumble into a very nasty fall. Scrambling that last 1/4 mile with a full pack could be more dangerous on average then going up without your pack. There are lots on scenarios that we can come up with that can illustrate either side of the equation. I have absolutely no problem with you offering the recommendation that you carry all your gear with you at all points. While I usually don't bother dropping pack for summit jaunts I have on occasion when I feel it is warranted and safe. Every action you take has risks, we can evaluate those risks differently.

There are some injuries that are pretty much impossible to deal with when solo, not matter how much gear you carry. If we carry this to the logical extreme no one would hike in groups of less then three. You'd never be able to hike without a bivy sack, stove, and 2 days of food. People may evaluate that this type of preparation is valid for some hikes, and inappropriate for others. I don't believe in absolute rules (except always carry a headlamp).

 

[Mad Townie]

Now everyone, go out and buy the book from The Mountain Wanderer!

There you go, Stinkyfeet, telling us all what to do!

A good friend of mine, older than I, once observed that mountaineering should be an old person's sport, because it's a tragedy when a young person dies.

There are risks I take now that I wouldn't have taken when my kids were 4 and 1. It's a matter of determining how much of a risk to self also constitutes a risk to others, and to me that's where the ethical question arises.

 

[Rik]

Thanks for bringing this point up. As one of the people that almost always carries my pack with my emergency gear all day, I do sometime resent people that drop their pack with the belief that I will give them my emergency gear if they need it. While I would be willing to provide aid and gear to a close hiking companion in need, most of them won't be needing it as they usually have their own emergency gear at the same time.

Now for the others that are counting on me to address THEIR emergency, I can say my conscious is perfectly fine with my decision to limit aid to one large garbage bag and anything you've brought. After all If I give you my coat or my extra gloves, I risk making a second victim, if I should (on a rare occasion) need them. And that is against my training.

Now on the other hand, we can discuss rental and the approriate fee.

As one that SOMETIMES drops my pack I can say that I am not counting on, expecting, or believing that someone will give me their emergency gear. I understand this is THEIR choice and one of the consequences of MY choice.

 

[Maddy]

True enough, "IF you end up lying in the snow with your open tib-fib fracture and can't walk" the emergency gear you left behind does no good. But if you do carry the emergency gear, and IF you end up lying unconscious in the snow, that same gear also does no good. The logic is flawed. It presupposes/contrives the emergency, but doesn't consider whether the action (leaving the pack behind)might in fact prevent the "IF" from happening in the first place. The inter-relation of actions and consequences is not a simple one

A hiker carries what most of us would consider a normal winter daypack when heading into the Seward Range, but also carries a sleeping bag and bivy that he leaves down low on the mountain. If there is a problem, or if he doesn't finish all three peaks during that day, this gives him additional options. He has carried "emergency gear" but has left it behind, i.e., it is not available at all times. Does that gear NOT still serve a purpose? Is he somehow less safe than the next hiker who carries the identical daypack but doesn't carry any sleeping bag or bivy?

To look at it another way, if when I leave my pack behind for the final push to the summit it serves no purpose, then I should have left my pack at home.

1. "IF you end up lying unconscious in the snow, that same gear also does no good. The logic is flawed."
If you are unconscious you really have a problem and all the gear in the world isn't going to help you out.
2."but also carries a sleeping bag and bivy that he leaves down low on the mountain."
What a great place for your bivy/sleeping bag....down LOW on the mountain and you are UP HIGH!
Of course having it down LOW does serve a purpose, providing you can access it.
3. The pack may as well be "at home" if you cannot reach it. Of course, it served you well for part of your hike and I don't think anyone would deny that, but where is it when you really need it?
4."Is he somehow less safe than the next hiker who carries the identical daypack but doesn't carry any sleeping bag or bivy?"
Isn't a bivy or sleeping bag part of what we consider to be winter gear?
5. "It presupposes/contrives the emergency, but doesn't consider whether the action (leaving the pack behind) might in fact prevent the "IF" from happening in the first place."
Can leaving the pack behind really prevent the "IF" from happening? That is a very interesting concept and not one that we were taught in any of my winter mountain safety courses.
I would love the hear what the SAR folks think is a reasonable distance to "leave one's pack."

Dr Wu...I am working on becoming more "eloquent" but don't get your hopes up.
I had no idea this was a contest. I would have tried a lot harder. Don't give up on me yet. As long as there is life, there is hope, and I always carry my pack

 

[John H Swanson]

Maddy, I generally agree with your point about being more prepared and finding a less prepared, injured hiker. My wife is an EMT, and she has learned the motto "it's not my emergency!". The implication is that the injured person's situation is their problem, not the rescuer's problem. These people dedicate their lives to helping others, but they know to not put themselves in peril for the sake of an injured person.

So, even though you are a kind soul, when you find that immobile hiker in need of more clothing to keep warm because of their injury, and their pack is a mile away, don't do anything to risk your own precious life. Don't change your more careful behavior.

Thanks for bringing this point up. As one of the people that almost always carries my pack with my emergency gear all day, I do sometime resent people that drop their pack with the belief that I will give them my emergency gear if they need it. While I would be willing to provide aid and gear to a close hiking companion in need, most of them won't be needing it as they usually have their own emergency gear at the same time.

Now for the others that are counting on me to address THEIR emergency, I can say my conscious is perfectly fine with my decision to limit aid to one large garbage bag and anything you've brought. After all If I give you my coat or my extra gloves, I risk making a second victim, if I should (on a rare occasion) need them. And that is against my training.

Now on the other hand, we can discuss rental and the approriate fee.

 

[Maddy]

Maddy, I generally agree with your point about being more prepared and finding a less prepared, injured hiker. My wife is an EMT, and she has learned the motto "it's not my emergency!". The implication is that the injured person's situation is their problem, not the rescuer's problem. These people dedicate their lives to helping others, but they know to not put themselves in peril for the sake of an injured person.

So, even though you are a kind soul, when you find that immobile hiker in need of more clothing to keep warm because of their injury, and their pack is a mile away, don't do anything to risk your own precious life. Don't change your more careful behavior.

Just my own opinion... I would never leave anything behind because I would want it all if I suffered even a minor injury. Just as importantly, I would never want to limit my options. Leaving something behind would equate to committing to going back in that direction. That is just unacceptable.

But, I couldn't care less if others want to hike Mt. Adams in February without a pack. Nor am I phased when someone tells me not be 10' from a bull moose in October.

happy trails

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
This is something that has weighed heavily on my mind each time we have these discussions.
It will make it much easier now for me to make the right decision should the situation ever arise.
The nurse in me always wants to save everyone no matter the cost to me but you definitely put this in perspective. No more guilt.
I no longer have to debate this issue. I know exactly what I have to do and this makes me feel really "lite and free", even more so than removing my pack

 

[Snowflea]

Although I am a bit confused about the scenario above (leaving packs at Edmands Col, then finding themselves 180 degrees off on the north [south?] side of Jefferson),

Thanks for pointing that out, Dr. Dasypodidae -- I corrected the post. (They left their packs on the south side and incorrectly descended to the north.)

Sounds like in this example they self rescued? And dropping map and compass is what got them into "trouble". If they had carried their packs but didn't have a map and compass they would have been in the same "trouble"? And the "trouble" ended up being some discomfort? If this is the best example we can come up with I don't find it very compelling.

I understand what you're saying, Rik. I found it compelling because of who it happened to and because the result could have been tragic (his own words). More that I thought it a good example of a valuable lesson learned.

 

[mavs00]

I never leave my pack unattended. I generally leave my dog unleashed to guard it's contents as I go on unencumbered, pockets turned out and empty. She's not very big or intimadating, so I've taught her to use a gun and I leave one with her. I will bring my iPhone though, cuz I generally hike during the week and it's important to check my stocks and the forums to see current conditions.

........​

This thread is unbelievable, it really is. It's like watching heavyweights slug it out.

First of, let me start by saying this as a qualifyer........... I ain't done sh!t, I pretty much don't know sh!t and the only "multiple rounds" I give a crap about comes out of a tap . It also happens to be the reason that I tend to carry more stuff than most people here, and probably am less inclined to drop my pack then some others (not that I never have)........ Now that I said that, please allow me to toss my opinion into the ring, to be promptly be discounted for more reasoned thinking.

Be it on the road, or the mountains, in the ghetto or the suburbs......... I generally try to take a realistic assessment of Who I am? Where I am, What I am doing? Why am I planning on doing it? and what are the ramifications of doing it if something I don't plan on happens?

After running though that checklist, I've found that I've generally been able come to a reasonable course of action that has so far, avoided the really bad things that life can thrown at you............. Which is in stark contrast to the folks I work with every day . I assume that since you are reading this, you have to.

Thing is, it's not the same for everyone. What's right for me, may or may not be right for the poster above or below me. I will say that if you are like me (you ain't done sh!t, or perhaps not as fit as others, or don't know a compass from a cuetip, or if any other indicators tell you that perhaps you could use a little more saltening), then the discussion you have with yourself to "drop or not drop" is probably one you ought to dedicate a little more time to then other choices you might make in life, like what color fleece matches your eyes best. Cuz one thing is 100% guaranteed, like everything else in life, the choice you make is the one you will be end up having to live with. Good or bad. Good luck.

Oh yeah, I would have just said this, but it was taken.

Clearly (at least to me) there isn't a magical cutoff point where it becomes stupid, irresponsible, or unsafe to drop gear. It's a judgment call based on prevailing conditions, experience level, etc.

 

[Chip]

Never gonna happen.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
This is something that has weighed heavily on my mind each time we have these discussions.
It will make it much easier now for me to make the right decision should the situation ever arise.
The nurse in me always wants to save everyone no matter the cost to me but you definitely put this in perspective. No more guilt.
I no longer have to debate this issue. I know exactly what I have to do and this makes me feel really "lite and free", even more so than removing my pack

Maddy, I don't know you but I seriously doubt you'll now pass gleefully by the trail needy. It's just human nature. A major reason I carry extra gear is to be able to help someone else out and it's nice to have if I need it. Anyone who's ever taken a CPR, Wilderness First Aid, Lifesaving Class, etc is generally going to do what they can, regardless, I mean, these are RECREATIONAL HIKES we're on here. Anyone that tells me the peak is worth more than helping some knothead that dropped their pack or didn't spend as much at EMS as me, is not someone I'd choose to hike with.

If it's a him or me, life or death situation and I brought the gear, I'm heading out for help, but it wouldn't be a guilt-free decision. Besides, those situations are so rare as to be virtually irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[randomscooter]

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
This is something that has weighed heavily on my mind each time we have these discussions.
It will make it much easier now for me to make the right decision should the situation ever arise.
The nurse in me always wants to save everyone no matter the cost to me but you definitely put this in perspective. No more guilt.
I no longer have to debate this issue. I know exactly what I have to do and this makes me feel really "lite and free", even more so than removing my pack

Perhaps this was intended as tongue in cheek, and anyways I'm not really pointing at any particular person, but would like to explore the attitude it portrays. The statement

I no longer have to debate this issue. I know exactly what I have to do

indicates that a decision (course of action) has been made (before even leaving home) for an incident which has not yet occurred. Do you REALLY know already what you'll do if and when you do encounter a disabled hiker? This, as far as I can see, is precisely the same logic that leads to the statement "I will carry all my gear for every step of every hike." It's an intriguing and challenging part of the game (gasp, how dare I consider this to be a game!!) to read the signs and adapt to them on the fly. We are human beings, not preprogrammed machines that faithfully follow a limited set of instructions but can't ever learn to work outside those limits.

 

[Neil]

Anyone that tells me the peak is worth more than helping some knothead that dropped their pack or didn't spend as much at EMS as me, is not someone I'd choose to hike with.

Note to Chip:
Stay away from Everest.

All kidding aside. In spite of the logic of Maddy's thinking I agree with Chip. I would help out (thinking, there but for the grace of God go I) and in all likelihood, I would probably do so at increased risk to myself.

Where it would get complicated for me is if I was with one of my children. No way would I put them at risk and all of my decisions would flow from that.

 

[BlackSpruce]

“Besides, those situations are so rare as to be virtually irrelevant to this discussion”.

Allow me to disagree. My husband and I have wondered the last few years if we attract disaster while winter climbing. Twice we had to get distressed climbers out of the woods, once all the way from Allen summit ridge and another time from Blueberry lean-to till the winter parking. Both times it was very scary and all about will power but there is no question that you just do what’s needed without even thinking about yourself. You become one with the person in need and go from there. Countless other times we gladly distributed food, drink, clothes and whatever else we always bring along and rarely if ever use for ourselves. There were times we wished we had performed a backpack inspection before leaving the trailhead... if, if,...

 

[randomscooter]

Bold (me)
regular (Maddy)
green (me)

1. "IF you end up lying unconscious in the snow, that same gear also does no good. The logic is flawed."
If you are unconscious you really have a problem and all the gear in the world isn't going to help you out.
I believe that was an essential part of the point I was making. Both your scenario and the one I presented have the same flawed logic. Mine was intentionally made more severe to accentuate the point.

2."but also carries a sleeping bag and bivy that he leaves down low on the mountain."
What a great place for your bivy/sleeping bag....down LOW on the mountain and you are UP HIGH!
For the intended purposes of said hiker, is this not better than leaving it at home? For said hiker, down low is indeed a great place for his sleeping bag/bivy... exactly where he chose to put it.
Of course having it down LOW does serve a purpose, providing you can access it.
Okay, finally a concession. Said hiker will access the gear when he returns to the base of the mountain.

3. The pack may as well be "at home" if you cannot reach it. Of course, it served you well for part of your hike and I don't think anyone would deny that, but where is it when you really need it?
Okay, another consession. Where is it when I really need it? On my back of course. I wouldn't have dropped it if there was an unacceptable risk.

4."Is he somehow less safe than the next hiker who carries the identical daypack but doesn't carry any sleeping bag or bivy?"
Isn't a bivy or sleeping bag part of what we consider to be winter gear?
If you mean for a day hike, no. I doubt one in ten winter hikers carries a sleeping bag on a day hike. If you are one of the one's who does then that is a good choice for you.

5. "It presupposes/contrives the emergency, but doesn't consider whether the action (leaving the pack behind) might in fact prevent the "IF" from happening in the first place."
Can leaving the pack behind really prevent the "IF" from happening? That is a very interesting concept and not one that we were taught in any of my winter mountain safety courses.
I would love the hear what the SAR folks think is a reasonable distance to "leave one's pack."
I'm speaking out of my element here a bit, but I'd guess that the SAR folks wouldn't recommend dropping one's pack. Their position requires them to provide conservative guidelines. That's a good thing.

 

[Chip]

“Besides, those situations are so rare as to be virtually irrelevant to this discussion”.

Allow me to disagree. My husband and I have wondered the last few years if we attract disaster while winter climbing. Twice we had to get distressed climbers out of the woods, once all the way from Allen summit ridge and another time from Blueberry lean-to till the winter parking. Both times it was very scary and all about will power but there is no question that you just do what’s needed without even thinking about yourself. You become one with the person in need and go from there. Countless other times we gladly distributed food, drink, clothes and whatever else we always bring along and rarely if ever use for ourselves. There were times we wished we had performed a backpack inspection before leaving the trailhead... if, if,...

Well, perhaps irrelevant was the wrong word in the context of this thread, but I meant those situations (like on Everest, Neil !) where stopping to help would legitimately put my life in danger. For most situations, stopping to help might mean missing the peak or Happy Hour that day.