Whole backpack left in the last col: please don’t.

[giggy]

In the present thread the underlying message is that the strong and knowledgeable winter climbers can’t make it to the summit without leaving their backpack in the col! Ha! Ha!

Its more about conserving energy when you can. Someone earlier in the post, said if you can't carry it to the summit, you shouldn't be on the route? I can't agree with that. Its not if you can - its about conserving energy when you can - if conditions warrant.

I am pretty sure there have not been an overwhelming amount of resuces, problems, etc.. from people dropping a pack to hit a summit - esp in the northeast - where most summits are not far from treeline and one can get up and down fairly quick. One could argue, if conditions are bad, you can get up and down faster than with the pack - thus less exposure to high winds, potential frostbite, etc..

 

[DougPaul]

It's a judgment call based on prevailing conditions, experience level, etc.

Exactly!

Static rules (eg carry the 10 essentials, never get more than 5 feet from your pack, etc) are often given to, and are most appropriate for beginners. Part of becoming experienced is learning to use one's own judgment on appropriate tradeoffs of gear vs safety.

BTW, more gear is not always safer... More gear means more weight and weight causes fatigue. Fatigue is a risk factor.

Doug

 

[Neil]

Ha! Ha!

Here is some information on a town in Quebec called St-Louis duHa!Ha!

 

[dr_wu002]

Seriously, dropping packs in the col wouldn't be a problem if everyone remembered to take their freakin' cell phone along with them to the summit!

-Dr. Wu

 

[Skyclimber]

IMO there is no perfect definitive answer here. As many have already mentioned and I would agree dropping your pack is situationally specific. That situation IMO greatly depends on an individuals experience,the destination and conditions. I find Niel's comments to be on target. Much of the time it is very possible to drop pack because it is quite easy to carry one's necessary needs on one's person. Again in my opinion I think a heavy gear ladden pack can be more of a liabilty than an attribute. Traveling light comes with experience and judgement. Again as already said the original post is vague and take it as a general warning and use one's own personal interpretation of that warning from there.

I will place my overall opinions and feelings here. I know that I will be flamed for my opinions but feel I must express them just the same. It's appearing to me that Winter Hiking in general seems to be taken much lighter than I would had expected. So many comments I have been reading I disagree with and quite surprised at. For several hikers who I thought were experienced, many of your opinions to me are quite irresponsible actions. Some of these "I'm experience and this can't happen to me" responses is just plain elitist and egotism.

It is not quite easy to carry the overall survival gear on one's body, without a pack. I wouldn't feel that a fleece tied around my waist is my guarantee for survival in the Winter Season against an accident, bivouack, etc. That to me is just ridiculous thinking and really taking a risk at large. Our experience, the destination and conditions, only play a role, in the comfort of the trip but it doesn't play the role in whether an accident or emergency will arise. Our experience does not even qualify us to lessen what we bring in our packs, as we are all human and accidents do happen within the experienced hikers as well. Our experience is not our shield against whether or not something is going to happen to us or not. We still can take a fall, break a leg, get frostbite, hyperthermia and will still need the survival gear if something were to happen. Some of these things happen in all seasons and even within the experienced hiker.

Why are so many responses stating, "It doesn't happen in the Northeast and they have never heard of anyone getting in trouble from leaving their packs?" Does anyone have the statistics of this to back this answer up with? I certainly do not believe this logic to be so. Dropping our packs certainly DOES decrease our chances of survival if anything were to go wrong out there. What is carried from the car, should be carried to the summit and back. Is it fair to the other hiker, who might have to save your life, with their survival gear, go back to get your survival gear, having to go back to the trailhead for help to haul your butt out of the Mountains, when it all might of been avoided, had you took the time to carry your own pack and load? What's the sense of bringing the pack, if you don't intend to carry it the whole way? Why bring survival gear if you think your so experienced that your not going to need it? Why would anyone encourage others to leave their pack, to save a little energy? What good is saving this energy, if your laying in the snow injured, without the proper survival gear, if something were to happen?

 

[BlackSpruce]

SKyClimber, hoorah to you for telling it like it is!

Your are much braver than all of us and sure knows what it's like to climb in the winter as you probably are the only woman having completed an handfull of W (6) rounds.

 

[skiguy]

I will place my overall opinions and feelings here. I know that I will be flamed for my opinions but feel I must express them just the same. It's appearing to me that Winter Hiking in general seems to be taken much lighter than I would had expected. So many comments I have been reading I disagree with and quite surprised at. For several hikers who I thought were experienced, many of your opinions to me are quite irresponsible actions. Some of these "I'm experience and this can't happen to me" responses is just plain elitist and egotism.

It is not quite easy to carry the overall survival gear on one's body, without a pack. I wouldn't feel that a fleece tied around my waist is my guarantee for survival in the Winter Season against an accident, bivouack, etc. That to me is just ridiculous thinking and really taking a risk at large. Our experience, the destination and conditions, only play a role, in the comfort of the trip but it doesn't play the role in whether an accident or emergency will arise. Our experience does not even qualify us to lessen what we bring in our packs, as we are all human and accidents do happen within the experienced hikers as well. Our experience is not our shield against whether or not something is going to happen to us or not. We still can take a fall, break a leg, get frostbite, hyperthermia and will still need the survival gear if something were to happen. Some of these things happen in all seasons and even within the experienced hiker.

Why are so many responses stating, "It doesn't happen in the Northeast and they have never heard of anyone getting in trouble from leaving their packs?" Does anyone have the statistics of this to back this answer up with? I certainly do not believe this logic to be so. Dropping our packs certainly DOES decrease our chances of survival if anything were to go wrong out there. What is carried from the car, should be carried to the summit and back. Is it fair to the other hiker, who might have to save your life, with their survival gear, go back to get your survival gear, having to go back to the trailhead for help to haul your butt out of the Mountains, when it all might of been avoided, had you took the time to carry your own pack and load? What's the sense of bringing the pack, if you don't intend to carry it the whole way? Why bring survival gear if you think your so experienced that your not going to need it? Why would anyone encourage others to leave their pack, to save a little energy? What good is saving this energy, if your laying in the snow injured, without the proper survival gear, if something were to happen?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion as are others and I can respect that. Again I will reiterate AND I RESPECT IF YOU DISAGREE but IMO there is no definitive answer here. One's choices and personal style are just that personal when it comes to the way they travel in the mountains and can be specific to the given situation. As I stated I will take the OP's original post as a general warning as I think others should. Correct me Black Spruce if I am wrong but since your original post was in the ADK forum to begin with was your warning specific to that area or for mountaineering in general. I think that some of the opinions expressed in this thread have been made in view of mountaineering in general and not just to the ADK.
I will agree that "I am experienced and this can't happen to me" is irresponsible. But on the other hand going into the mountains is risky. It will always be risky. Different people have different perceptions of what those risks are and also what might be risky for you might not be risky for me based on experience. Climbers are willing to take calculated risks based upon experiences. Taking risks is part of the game. If we were always to stay at home and never go to the mountains and experience risk Life would sure be boring. I think it is very hard to generalize and expect that everyone is going to fit into the same ideal perfectly safe little hole.

 

[dr_wu002]

Lame

Give me a break. Show me any real statistics showing the "dangers" of the mountains -- in winter or any other season. You probably have a higher risk traveling too and from the trailhead, especially in the winter when steep roads get icy.

To castigate Neil is laughable. He has demonstrated enough times that he is a competent hiker and can make his own decisions. The assumption that what one caries in ones pack will defend them from all possible outcomes is another logical fallacy, or that each hiker will make competent decisions about what to actually put in their pack and what constitutes safety. Added to that, as Doug Paul and others have already stated, a heavy pack can actually be an added liability in certain situations.

This whole attitude of stinks of irrational fears and a blushing misuse of logic (and reason) projected on the masses here. Sure, good advice for someone starting out winter hiking, but hopelessly out of place with these suggestions, not to mention out of line telling people what to do.

-Dr. Wu

 

[BlackSpruce]

Skiguy, above is the original post but Tim was kind and caring enough to post it on his own forum. Yes, it's a general advice but since I mostly climb in the Adirondacks you could say it applies more there.

"Taking risks is part of the game. If we were always to stay at home and never go to the mountains and experience risk Life would sure be boring."

This is why we, as a society, constantly work towards creating safer homes, safer cars, safer food, safer toys, safer sporting activities, etc. and may get killed crossing the street, going to church or even while shopping. Doesn't mean we have to keep our head in the snow and only hope for the best, outings are more fun if well informed and well prepared.

Thanks for participating in the debate.

PS: "not to mention out of line telling people what to do": Dr Wu you win first prize for constructive comment.

 

[randomscooter]

SKyClimber, hoorah to you for telling it like it is!

Your are much braver than all of us and sure knows what it's like to climb in the winter as you probably are the only woman having completed an handfull of W rounds.

BlackSpruce, you know I love you dearly, but I don't get your comment. I may be misreading, but you seem to be implying that Skyclimber's admirable record of several winter rounds of the high peaks qualifies her to "tell it like it is". If that is the case then doesn't it follow that <name omitted>, who has approximately 2 dozen winter rounds of the high peaks, would be even more qualified? The person to whom I refer regularly leaves his/her pack below summits, and often does winter climbs with a fanny pack. To my knowledge he/she has never been stranded overnight in the mountains.

I'm also reminded of an incident last winter, in which I was one of a party of six on Haystack. The slopes were bulletproof crust. Three of the six were carrying ice axes, while the other three were not. All three with ice axes took spills requiring self-arrests (one rather dramatic), while all three without ice axes were fine. I won't rule out divine intervention, or dumb luck. But perhaps those without the ice axes were more sensitized to the dangers and hence more safe in their actions. In other words, it may be that less gear had the net effect of greater safety. The world doesn't always work in obvious ways.

 

[Skyclimber]

Give me a break. Show me any real statistics showing the "dangers" of the mountains -- in winter or any other season. You probably have a higher risk traveling too and from the trailhead, especially in the winter when steep roads get icy.

To castigate Neil is laughable. He has demonstrated enough times that he is a competent hiker and can make his own decisions. The assumption that what one caries in ones pack will defend them from all possible outcomes is another logical fallacy, or that each hiker will make competent decisions about what to actually put in their pack and what constitutes safety. Added to that, as Doug Paul and others have already stated, a heavy pack can actually be an added liability in certain situations.

This whole attitude of stinks of irrational fears and a blushing misuse of logic (and reason) projected on the masses here. Sure, good advice for someone starting out winter hiking, but hopelessly out of place with these suggestions, not to mention out of line telling people what to do.

-Dr. Wu

Excuse Me Dr. Wu if you think I am out of line! I am NOT telling hikers what to do but rather placing my opinions about Winter Hiking and leaving one's pack. Yes Neil has done alot of hiking BUT you don't know me Dr. Wu, I am not a Rookie Hiker! I don't usually boast of my accomplishments but I too, have almost completed the Hundred Highest of The Adirondacks, I have climbed the entire Adirondack Forty Six almost Sixteen (16) times, climbed the Adirondack Forty Six, almost three times in Each Season of the Year and I have completed the Winter Forty Six almost SIX TIMES lacking two peaks. I was a Mentor for others, hands on with Climbing in Winter and now they are Mentors for others. I am also a Summer and Winter Correspondent for the Adirondack Forty Sixers and also have my own chapter in "Women With Altitude," about Women Winter Climbers. As you see, I have quite the Hiking Resume, so Please don't say I'm NOT qualified to place what I feel is safety in the Mountains over Neil. I certainly know what I am talking about and certainly qualified in doing so.

 

[jime]

Not to re-direct the thread but....

I know lots of folks, including myself, who carry a small lumbar pack in our bigger packs that we can grab for summit attempts or when going offtrail to check something out. It has the basics for the time of year and guarantees that I have something should "bad stuff" happen. Makes packing easier too and only adds a little weight.

 

[BlackSpruce]

I am very surprised that this thread is getting such a response by all the experienced winter climbers as it’s obviously not intended for that particularly small crowd. Like a friend said via a private e-mail : “I'd have thought you were preaching to the choir”!

...Concerning using an axe or crampons I agree with your assessment and that is another debate altogether which we will tackle next week on a new thread...


------------------------------
"carry a small lumbar pack in our bigger packs that we can grab for summit attempts or when going offtrail to check something out. It has the basics for the time of year and guarantees that I have something should "bad stuff" happen. Makes packing easier too and only adds a little weight."

 

[Tim Seaver]

I am very surprised that this thread is getting such a response by all the experienced winter climbers as it’s obviously not intended for that particularly small crowd.

You probably would have saved yourself some grief if you had made that clear in your original post.

Concerning using an axe or crampons I agree with your assessment and that is another debate altogether which we will tackle next week on a new thread....

Based on the tone of this thread, that should be a doozy. Don't forget "soloing above treeline in winter", I am sure we could all use some instructions and guidelines on that topic too.


When suddenly, a large padlock fell from the sky...

 

[BlackSpruce]

"You probably would have saved yourself some grief if you had made that clear in your original post."

What grief? It's only a thread about winter climbing, another chance to live and learn, no harm intended from anyone I am sure. Most of the posters on this thread are Adirondacks winter climbers and know each other personnally.

 

[Skyclimber]

BlackSpruce, you know I love you dearly, but I don't get your comment. I may be misreading, but you seem to be implying that Skyclimber's admirable record of several winter rounds of the high peaks qualifies her to "tell it like it is". If that is the case then doesn't it follow that <name omitted>, who has approximately 2 dozen winter rounds of the high peaks, would be even more qualified? The person to whom I refer regularly leaves his/her pack below summits, and often does winter climbs with a fanny pack. To my knowledge he/she has never been stranded overnight in the mountains.

I'm also reminded of an incident last winter, in which I was one of a party of six on Haystack. The slopes were bulletproof crust. Three of the six were carrying ice axes, while the other three were not. All three with ice axes took spills requiring self-arrests (one rather dramatic), while all three without ice axes were fine. I won't rule out divine intervention, or dumb luck. But perhaps those without the ice axes were more sensitized to the dangers and hence more safe in their actions. In other words, it may be that less gear had the net effect of greater safety. The world doesn't always work in obvious ways.

Randomscooter, I have always admired your accomplishments, Please don't get defensive. Out of respect, we cannot include W24 Rounds hiker, as he/she has not participated in this debate as of yet, if it happens to be who I think your referring to. Remember in one of my previous replies, I used, "I", "Me" statements, so all my comments were not directed to anyone in particular. My comments were a generalization of carrying a back pack in Winter. Sorry but I am still from the "Old School," about carrying a pack to and from the summit, in all seasons. What can I say, "Grace was a great teacher and she always specified to Never Leave Your Pack."

 

[dug]

You probably would have saved yourself some grief if you had made that clear in your original post.


QUOTE]

Agreed. Generally speaking, people don't like to be talked TO, they like things to be discussed WITH. It isn't about anyone's resume. I just gloss over when people start in with their "I've done the XXX list...and have summited ASDF peaks in ABC season" or whatever.

Anytime someone makes a blanket statement that anything has to be done a certain way, flack will always follow.

 

[Neil]

To castigate Neil is laughable.

It's OK, we're good friends but if I know what's good for me I won't say, She taught me everything I know.

I wouldn't feel that a fleece tied around my waist is my guarantee for survival in the Winter Season

Neither would I, in the Adirondacks. In Northwest Ontario, Manitoba etc. we never worried about it.

 

[cbcbd]

So it seems that we all disagree to disagree in this thread...

All right, where's the mod hat guy when you need him...

This thread is giving me a headache - and I'm a 12 time no-pack soloer of all the 9000 meter peaks in winter.

 

[Rik]

This thread is giving me a headache - and I'm a 12 time no-pack soloer of all the 9000 meter peaks in winter.

We've all done those, big deal.