Whole backpack left in the last col: please don’t.

[Rik]

Mark Amico (middle of page) spent two cold rainy nights on Mt. Monadnock after he left his pack with his hiking partners to run up and bag the summit. Fortunately he was already wearing his trench coat when he headed for the summit.

Thanks for posting that. I don't see where it said he left his pack? Seems like leaving his pack was incidental. Did he even have a pack at the start? Why didn't he return as scheduled?

Looks to me like he had enough with him to get out safely even though he may have reduced his margin for error in the process.

 

[Rick]

HYOH. Do what you need to stay within your comfort zone.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Thanks for posting that. I don't see where it said he left his pack? Seems like leaving his pack was incidental. Did he even have a pack at the start? Why didn't he return as scheduled?

Looks to me like he had enough with him to get out safely even though he may have reduced his margin for error in the process.

This was covered pretty good by WMUR TV-9 at the time though there doesn't seem to be much on the web about it. I was there at the State Park to participate in the search the day he hiked out. Yes, according to the news reports at the time, he had a pack but left it with his friends while he went for the summit on a Sunday afternoon. After it got dark, the friends went down the mountain and reported him missing. Apparently it took him longer to reach the summit than he thought it would and darkness arrived just after reaching the summit. In the dark without his flashlight or compass he descended the north side of the mountain. It rained nearly all day Monday. He spent his nights and most of Monday crouched under evergreen trees trying to stay dry. He hiked out to a house in Dublin on Tuesday morning.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

FWIW - this isn't the Northeast but ... a few hundred (maybe more) people a month drop their packs about 2 miles below the summit of Mt Whitney, at the intersection of the Whitney Trail and the John Muir Trail, around 13,450'. Nearly all the thru-hikers do this, as well as a few of the day/overnight hikers. Never heard of anyone getting into trouble as a result but it might have happened.

As Rick said, HYOH. Some people are never comfortable with dropping their pack. That's OK, so long as they're tolerant of those who do, and vice versa.

 

[sweeper]

I drop. There fore I am.

What the difference between dropping and hiking into a base camp area and doing loops out of it.

If you were hiking in the winter, under servre condition or the potential there of... I can see where you wouldn't drop.

But if I'm on So Twin on my way to Garfield and want to bag No. Twin, I'm dropping.

 

[Tim Seaver]

In the interest of keeping an interesting debate going, don't think anyone suggested BSP or making anything mandatory.

I'm CERTAIN Christine will set me straight if I'm wrong, but what I think she was positing is that it isn't a great idea to leave your gear.

I guess I shouldn't pick on Baxter, I have seen folks just as bent out of shape in the ADK and NH who feel that they must impose their personal set of "safety standards" on others. I guess Baxter comes to mind when I think of where that kind of rigid mindset leads.

There are lots of very experienced climbers, all over the world, on mountains of every size, who don't bring their entire pack to the summit. They bring what they need to get them safely to the summit and back to their camp, col, whatever, without being burdened with unnecessary weight - which can actually be safer on the windier, rougher terrain common to many summits in New England.

 

[Snowflea]

Whitney/JMT

Hey, I carried my 4 lb. JMT pack every step of the way up Mt. Whitney (and also on two earlier trips up there this summer.)

BTW, is this post a joke? Whether to leave a pack or not is a personal decision. Don't we already have enough rules in our lives?


Stinkyfeet (who hiked/ran in 4" of powdery SNOW in the Los Padres mtns. today!)

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Wow, is it funny to anyone else that this statement was made:

PS: The above alarm comes from years of reading trip reports from climbers as I am one of the team of summer and winter correspondents for the 46-Rs.

And the majority of people that responded to this thread are multi rounders, multi winter rounders and winter record holders?

She is making a you should please for your safety and others for the majority of winter hikers who just happen to fall into the other 99% of hikers who didn't respond. She is good friends with IceNSnow who is a feather weight woman who has solo wintered most of the mountains on the ADK100 without wearing waterproof gear, I don't think she is chastising her either. I think it is just taking responsibility to put out a you should statement. Look at the trail reports and you can see that many aren't members that read these post and you should follow the "you should" list of things until you find yourself having fallen into many of those "oh crap" type of situations.
In most climbing situations the most experience/strongest climbers are the leaders who should be encouraging others to think of their safety and others climbing with them. If you find yourself falling into the "I have enough experience" group then you should also realize that the comments where not directed at you.
I personally get tired of the things like a ranger almost demanding to know if I have a headlamp because the pansies he knows can't do the hike I'm doing in 6 hrs in an entire day and then coming out the next 3 consecutive weekends to find people lost in the dark in the Marcy dam area. But, I won't be found not carrying at least one extra head lamp and helping those people out either. I think there should be signs and warnings for people, there are plenty of good people that are completely ignorant of the outdoors when there starting out and I don't want to hear about something happening to them. If I have to hear a warning a 100 times so that the one family starting out all come home safe so be it. I don't scratch "I know" or "this doesn't apply to me" on other waring signs.
I don't think the great experience of this group should be wasted on saying "well, I don't all the time or I make my own judgment calls" type of comments guys. No sh!t, I and we know that. Do you think TS or Frodo are carrying 80 pound packs everywhere in the Whites or Rik and Skyclimber are in the Daks if your not them. We should be encouraging safe behavior in others.
BlackSpruce just tends to be more outspoken in taking a more responsible role. I told her once how I would be doing a very difficult all day bushwhack with her after two very long days prior and next to no sleep. She said she wasn't going because it wasn't safe for me. Now I could interpret that like "who the hell are you" but she told me she knew I would go forever in the woods but I would be to spent for a 3 hr drive home. She was completely right, I had done the same thing the weekend before and couldn't remember 50 miles of driving on 87N and woke up in other lanes a few times. I realized that I was taking a risk and I should be responsible for myself and other drivers and that hike would be a lot more enjoyable on another day full and fresh. Everyone needs a kick now and then.

It is also why I started calling her MotherSpuce!

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Occasionally a few climbers report leaving all their gear the last col before the summit. It’s not a good idea at all. You carried all that gear the many miles from the parking lot and leave it behind to travel the section of your climb where most emergency arises! If you really must lighten your pack bring along a large plastic bag to store in it the “extras” from your gear and never leave any food as the critters could be in it within minutes. Let say your partner gets hurt near the summit it’s a VERY long way down and back up, no matter how strong a climber you are. Furthermore bringing back to the wounded emergency stuff will take time and energy (which equal time) and will increase the duration your partner wait for a rescue if it’s bad enough that you must run to the trailhead to get help.

As well conditions above tree line, particularly in the winter, can be drastically different from the protection of the forest in the col. The conditions on a open summit can change in minutes, you may need your compass to find you way down, your hat may be blown away, you may have a cramp and need to drink, etc.

Please, please don’t leave all of your gear behind when you are going to need it the most.

Christine

PS: The above alarm comes from years of reading trip reports from climbers as I am one of the team of summer and winter correspondents for the 46-Rs.

Sounds like:
You better listen to me because I know better than you.

I agree with Dug, Kevin, etc. Hike your own hike!

As for me I always keep my pack with me because I don't want anyone to steal my beer.

 

[Skyclimber]

Do you think TS or Frodo are carrying 80 pound packs everywhere in the Whites or Rik and Skyclimber are in the Daks if your not them. We should be encouraging safe behavior in others.

Excuse my "ignorance" but what in the world is this comment suppose to mean? I certainly Did NOT imply that safe climbing shouldn't be practiced in the Winter Woods OR anytime of year for that matter.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Sounds like:
You better listen to me because I know better than you.

Shouldn't all general warnings have that sound. I'm humble enough to take the emotional hit.

As for me I always keep my pack with me because I don't want anyone to steal my beer.

Lmao!

Isn't there a super long thread though about a lost hiker on the Franconia ridge who came down the wrong side of the col on here. I'd say a sleeping bag falls into the laughable section of things you may not need but if that kid (24) did that he'd be dead. What if that guy you helped out did this trick Bob but instead of the valley it happened up top. Someone could easily plan on "well, I'll just drop so I can go faster to make it out before dark" when that fall occurs. What happens to that person? That's a pretty serious "?" isn't it?

The person starting this thread uses English as a second language by the way.

Hey, don't take me wrong. If someone tried starting a "hiking law" like this I'd be at the top of the F' off list. I think we sometimes forget this isn't a closed loop private messaging group ya know. I might pee in the Carrigain well before drinking from it. It would be "my choice" my "reckless" choice.

 

[Rik]

I don't think the great experience of this group should be wasted on saying "well, I don't all the time or I make my own judgment calls" type of comments guys. No sh!t, I and we know that. Do you think TS or Frodo are carrying 80 pound packs everywhere in the Whites or Rik and Skyclimber are in the Daks if your not them. We should be encouraging safe behavior in others.
BlackSpruce just tends to be more outspoken in taking a more responsible role.

Cory, I understand what you are saying but I also think for people to learn (and make their own decisions) it is best to hear all sides and reasons. I know I'm skeptical if whenever I hear ALWAYS or NEVER.
As you know, I know Blackspruce. I respect her and her opinion. I just think there is value in seeing both sides.
I'm not encouraging anyone to drop their pack. I think everyone should inform themselves and decide for themselves.
Or maybe I'm just being defensive since I suspect that one of my recent trip reports on another forum provided inspiration for this thread?

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Excuse my "ignorance" but what in the world is this comment suppose to mean? I certainly Did NOT imply that safe climbing shouldn't be practiced in the Winter Woods OR anytime of year for that matter.

Actually I would never think to use a word like ignorance in relation to you from what I've read of your many post on this site or others or from information from people who know you. I meant to imply that you guys know exactly what to bring in nearly all situations. And that list doesn't include everything you own. Sorry, if I wasn't more clear on that.


I'll volunteer myself as unsafe, I do things like bushwhack around in the high peaks without not only a compass but not even a map at times. I don't have a problem with people saying "don't or you shouldn't do that" though.

I get tired of the "hike your own hike" comment though. That is more obvious than "be safe" to me and I think there isn't a person I would ever want to have a conversation with that doesn't know to "hike your own hike". The only time I would have a problem with that is when a group leader is deciding for others.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Cory, I understand what you are saying but I also think for people to learn (and make their own decisions) it is best to hear all sides and reasons. I know I'm skeptical if whenever I hear ALWAYS or NEVER.
As you know, I know Blackspruce. I respect her and her opinion. I just think there is value in seeing both sides.
I'm not encouraging anyone to drop their pack. I think everyone should inform themselves and decide for themselves.
Or maybe I'm just being defensive since I suspect that one of my recent trip reports on another forum provided inspiration for this thread?

Rik, I'm trying to say a statement like "I know I don't always need it or I sometimes am guilty of this myself but I should" and maybe adding a personal story of a "i'm glad I did because" is the way this should go shouldn't it?

Oh, by the way. If we are ever hiking together with say Eric and you drop your pack I can guarantee your getting your balls busted all the way up and back about being to much of a wuss to carry your pack. Don't worry I'm sure Eric will not join into this teasing nor will comments even after you retrieve your pack and we are not only down but in the car come up like "hey, Rik remember being to much of a wuss to carry your own pack" happen to come up during the ride home.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Isn't there a super long thread though about a lost hiker on the Franconia ridge who came down the wrong side of the col on here. I'd say a sleeping bag falls into the laughable section of things you may not need but if that kid (24) did that he'd be dead.

The guy had his sleeping bag with him on Franconia Ridge last winter because his three-person group was attempting a north-south traverse with a plan to camp at Liberty Springs, but turned back because of the weather (with him getting separated, disoriented, and lost without map and compass). So, bad analogy, as would be the fatality on Lafayette on Easter Sunday four years ago when two "ultra runners" continued up in bad weather with hardly any gear from the get go (so, nothing to leave behind).

So, my two cents is that it is at least good to have a pack with some emergency items to drop at a col or wherever as a safety net. There is an old maxim in mountaineering that some times the greatest safety factor is speed to get up and down before the storm, darkness, or whatever, and speed is certainly enhanced by a lighter pack. IMHO, it is the ability to make the right decision about when to turn around, pack or no pack, that is most important in mountaineering (or, in a lot of life endeavors, for that matter; gag! ).

 

[Rik]

Oh, by the way. If we are ever hiking together with say Eric and you drop your pack I can guarantee your getting your balls busted all the way up and back about being to much of a wuss to carry your pack. Don't worry I'm sure Eric will not join into this teasing nor will comments even after you retrieve your pack and we are not only down but in the car come up like "hey, Rik remember being to much of a wuss to carry your own pack" happen to come up during the ride home.

Being called a wuss is just one of the consequences of my choice. I'll make the choice and live with the consequences. Of course, you guys will need to catch up with me to bust on me.

 

[Maddy]

it’s a VERY long way down and back up, no matter how strong a climber you are. Furthermore bringing back to the wounded emergency stuff will take time and energy (which equal time) and will increase the duration your partner wait for a rescue if it’s bad enough that you must run to the trailhead to get help.
The conditions on a open summit can change in minutes, you may need your compass to find you way down, your hat may be blown away, you may have a cramp and need to drink, etc.

Please, please don’t leave all of your gear behind when you are going to need it the most.

Christine

You won't ever be sorry you did take it with you.
On the other hand, if you don't, you might live to regret it, or worse still, not survive the incident.
Thank you for reminding us just in case we think that our packs are a little too heavy and succumb to the temptation to leave it all behind.
I know there are hikers who do not agree with this philosophy but my lingering question remains each time this comes up.
Would the individuals who leave their packs to go lite and fast expect those of us who carry all our gear to just hand it over if we encountered them sick or injured on the mountain?
Would that not be endangering two people because the rescuer would no longer be carrying their own emergency gear as he or she headed down to get help?
What if that person fractured their ankle, fell in the river up to old neck, took a wrong turn and was benighted, etc???
This would not be as big an issue if you were in a large group, but if we are talking solo hikers, or just you and your friend, the scenario has a lot of potential for a most undesirable outcome.
Speaking only for myself, I would like something more substantial than "speed, a wing and a prayer" to get me through a big mess.

 

[skiguy]

IMO there is no perfect definitive answer here. As many have already mentioned and I would agree dropping your pack is situationally specific. That situation IMO greatly depends on an individuals experience,the destination and conditions. I find Niel's comments to be on target. Much of the time it is very possible to drop pack because it is quite easy to carry one's necessary needs on one's person. Again in my opinion I think a heavy gear ladden pack can be more of a liabilty than an attribute. Traveling light comes with experience and judgement. Again as already said the original post is vague and take it as a general warning and use one's own personal interpretation of that warning from there.

 

[randomscooter]

She is making a you should please for your safety and others for the majority of winter hikers who just happen to fall into the other 99% of hikers who didn't respond.

If you find yourself falling into the "I have enough experience" group then you should also realize that the comments where not directed at you.

I don't think the great experience of this group should be wasted on saying "well, I don't all the time or I make my own judgment calls" type of comments guys.

We should be encouraging safe behavior in others.

BlackSpruce just tends to be more outspoken in taking a more responsible role.

Agree with much, not all. First, it's not a waste for the more experienced in the group to give their opinion. If nothing else it provides balance to the discussion. What else would be the point in posting on a discussion forum? Why in heaven's name would I NOT want to share my thoughts? Otherwise those with no experience might not realize that there were other opinions out there. Second, I'd strike out the word "responsible" in the last sentence above and insert "conservative". Unless of course you're saying that those of us who drop packs are being irresponsible, in which case I'll disagree on that point.

As for dropping packs (in part or whole) my hike begins when I leave my house. I often drop gear at the trailhead (i.e., leave it in my vehicle) if I deem it unneeded for the prevailing conditions. That's one extreme example where it's obvious that dropping gear is sometimes okay. At the other extreme, let's say I'm 50 feet from the summit sign. I decide to hang my pack on a convenient branch, figuring I can make the last 50 feet with no problem. I doubt many folks here would object to that example of dropping gear. Where the question comes in is somewhere between the trailhead and the last 50 (or 100, or 500, or ???) feet from the summit. Clearly (at least to me) there isn't a magical cutoff point where it becomes stupid, irresponsible, or unsafe to drop gear. It's a judgment call based on prevailing conditions, experience level, etc.

 

[BlackSpruce]

Cold River Run really understood what the whole point was about. Cory thanks for your posting. A few others took the whole thing personally, well that’s too bad but hardly convincing arguments. I believe for the readers at large, quite the contrary will apply. In the present thread the underlying message is that the strong and knowledgeable winter climbers can’t make it to the summit without leaving their backpack in the col! Ha! Ha!

I am delighted to create such interest in the subject, it certainly wasn’t expected but it’s nevertheless as constructive as enlightening.


Happy Holidays.


PS: "It's a judgment call based on prevailing conditions, experience level, etc.": absolutely but you must be an experienced winter climber to be able to make it.