Whole backpack left in the last col: please don’t.

[BlackSpruce]

"Originally Posted by cbcbd:
This thread is giving me a headache - and I'm a 12 time no-pack soloer of all the 9000 meter peaks in winter."

To give you a chance to recover I will wait till starting my next thread: Should Winter Climbing Be Allowed.

Happy Holidays Climbing to all,


Christine

 

[Peakbagr]

"All right, where's the mod hat guy when you need him..."

So far, no harm, no foul, good discussion.

 

[David Metsky]

"All right, where's the mod hat guy when you need him..."

So far, no harm, no foul, good discussion.

I agree. People can disagree, rather vehemently, as long as they keep it civil.

For me, I sometimes drop pack in winter and sometimes keep my pack in summer. The calendar doesn't dictate what is safe; I do - based on current conditions, my knowledge of the area, the group I'm with, the time of day, and about a dozen other variables.

I'm a big fan of the following:

"Mountains are dangerous,'' he wrote, "and the faster and more dynamic you are under dangerous conditions, the safer you will be.''

That's sometimes boiled down to "Speed is Safety" but I think we all recognize that it's a bit more complex then that. Advice is great, but accepting that people have differing skills, experiences, comfort zones, expectations, and values is important too.

Hike your own hike.

 

[giggy]

Why would anyone encourage others to leave their pack, to save a little energy? What good is saving this energy, if your laying in the snow injured, without the proper survival gear, if something were to happen?

Just my opinion on the matter.

 

[blacklab2020]

When you get into alpine style climbing... pushing limits means dropping gear and going light and fast. Not that these moutains require it so much, more so the schedules of todays climbers in the whites would say that we only have 2-3 days to complete a presi traverse, or if we are going to do all these peaks in an overnight trip, we cant carry 45 pound packs over them in the winter.

In the end it is up the the judgment of the individual. On this website we have to keep in mind there are a wide range of speeds and strengths of hikers with little to extensive experiences.

To each his own, with discretion please.



Edit: wow, when did this thread get so long... this posting may have come a little late. Pretty much, what Dave said...

 

[Kevin Rooney]

It's a good thing when hikers and climbers know their own expertise and comfort levels, and aren't afraid to express them. But, expressing them is one thing, forcing them upon others is quite another.

I've found, over the years, that's its a good thing to discuss the days hiking plans with your companions at the trailhead. That could mean, for example, that dropping packs in col X might be an option and does anyone have a problem with that? That way, if anyone does, it can be thrashed out BEFORE the hike. Setting common expectations can go a long way towards a congenial and safer hike.

Having said that, there are some things I simply won't budge on, and one is hydration bladders in winter. I don't care how many rounds of winter peaks you've done, nor all the 9,000M peaks or the 8 Summits, MacGyver thaw kits, etc - you and me and your bladder are not a unit. I'm not saying what you can or cannot bring for gear - I'm just saying that I can't put myself in jeopardy by carrying your emergency water. If you still want to bring the bladder, that's your choice. But, we won't be hiking together that day.

The example above may seem to some like a distinction without a difference, but to me it's a world of difference.

 

[blacknblue]

I too, have almost completed the Hundred Highest of The Adirondacks, I have climbed the entire Adirondack Forty Six almost Sixteen (16) times, climbed the Adirondack Forty Six, almost three times in Each Season of the Year and I have completed the Winter Forty Six almost SIX TIMES lacking two peaks. I was a Mentor for others, hands on with Climbing in Winter and now they are Mentors for others. I am also a Summer and Winter Correspondent for the Adirondack Forty Sixers and also have my own chapter in "Women With Altitude," about Women Winter Climbers. As you see, I have quite the Hiking Resume, so Please don't say I'm NOT qualified to place what I feel is safety in the Mountains over Neil. I certainly know what I am talking about and certainly qualified in doing so.

Sheesh... is this going to disintegrate into another 'hard-core' thread? The person with the best resume wins the debate? If you could talk to Messner and Mallory and Hillary and Krakauer and Viesturs and Boukreev, you would get wildly differing opinions on the 'proper' way to do things in the mountains. Flaunting credentials shouldn't be a replacement for making sound arguments.


The other day I drop my pack, snowshoes, and poles at the base of the observation tower on Ascutney, went up and took some picture for about ten minutes, then came back down. Is that okay? Another time I dropped pack on the Obs deck on Washington and walked around the deck for a few minutes. Is that okay? Is it okay to drop pack and then walk into the woods to take a leak?

If it is, then the dropping pack debate is what most people have been saying --a matter of degree with several pertinent factors.

 

[cbcbd]

So far, no harm, no foul, good discussion.

I agree. People can disagree, rather vehemently, as long as they keep it civil.

Ok, ok, you guys win, let's keep this going then:

I get the overall message of "be safe" and "be prepared" but I too am in the school of - if you bring your tent and sleeping bag you'll probably have to use it.

Being that I sometimes solo in the winter (sometimes ice climbing), I have had numerous discussions with "outsiders" about the dangers of said activities- the risks of mother nature, how one can't beat mother nature, how accidents happen, and so forth... it all ends up in the same thing - you can't define what is acceptable risk for everyone.
I travel as light, safely, and as efficiently as I possibly can - I think some get stuck on the "safely" part and chose to carry everything all the time "just in case". I'm glad that works for some, but it's really not optimal for every mountain situation (ever try to do a jumpturn with a 40lb pack on? Ugh!) and honestly, to just come out and say that anyone who does otherwise is irresponsible is just very narrow minded - most out there are taking calculated risks based on their own skills and experience.

Just like they used to say in my sex-ed class - "The only safe sex is no sex"

What can I say, sometimes risk calls and you have to accept the charges.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

There was so much said since my last post that I think I need to make a bunch of just straight statements to be clear in responses and my views:

I never said I agree with what BlackSpruce originally posted or how she said it.
I knew right away when I read it that many would have a problem with the "being told what to do" tone.
I saw that the people who did not know her-mostly NE hikers were having a problem with it because she sounded like many who they and I can't stand who want to tell others how they should do things like enjoy the mountains or where they should go.
I think everyone would agree that the technically more safe pattern would to be bring your pack than not bring your pack.
I firmly believe it is up to the individual to use his/her best judgment to care for themselves.
I know there are to many variables to even begin to say what is best in a every scenario.
I personally like when experienced people want to offer me advice or there opinion if they know that I will listen and then use my experience along with it to come up with what I determine to be a best answer for a situation.
I hope that every experienced person here would offer out a lot of information to help safe guard someone who stops them to ask on a trail what they should be aware of and safeguards against even if it would not be what they might personally do.
I think saying show me stats since non exist in either direction is a waste of time.
Comparing number of accidents related to hiking in winter to some major activity like driving done by hundreds of millions in this country is also a waste.
If you can't say being on Mt Washington in mid winter conditions is more dangerous than going to the grocery store, get back on your meds.
I think comparing the average hikers to top end Ultrarunner/Durahikers is nonsense.
To think that you are invincible because you are a top end athlete is just plain dumb.
To think you have a right to do a hike climb solo anyway you want with some basic trail rules is correct. ex snowshoes may be required for the rules.
I can say that there are many I have great respect for who have posted in this thread is an understatement.
Since most had no idea who SkyClimber is I have no problem with her listing some things that would seem to dictate experience as an output, I do not think it was bragging in the least it was put out when she felt she was being attacked as less experienced. She has 100's of post on multi forums and it is the first I recall her doing such. How could an opinion on winter hiking from one of the most experience female winter climbers not be considered valuable information?
Becoming a member and hiking with members of these forums has made me a safer and I think better climber.
Even if you don't change me from a 5 to a 10 but only get me to a 6 I should thank you for it.

When I have to watch people like Tim S or Stinky make post that seem to be totally defensive so that they can talk about doing something and not seem like they are bragging but just doing something they love in other threads it sickens me.

I think that if I gave many of the top hikers here a toothbrush and summer gear they could go end to end on many of the traverses and come out with a million dollar smile and plans for next weekends hike on the other side 99 of 100 times with stories that should not be followed by average climbers.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

The guy had his sleeping bag with him on Franconia Ridge last winter because his three-person group was attempting a north-south traverse with a plan to camp at Liberty Springs, but turned back because of the weather (with him getting separated, disoriented, and lost without map and compass). So, bad analogy, as would be the fatality on Lafayette on Easter Sunday four years ago when two "ultra runners" continued up in bad weather with hardly any gear from the get go (so, nothing to leave behind).

So, my two cents is that it is at least good to have a pack with some emergency items to drop at a col or wherever as a safety net.

I agree with your two cents Dr D and that the "ultra runners" on Easter would be a bad example.

But how is the Franconia ridge one bad? Because it is not exact and they were planning a traverse instead of an out and back like they actually did? How much closer to summit climbing does the example need to be? The sleeping bag and gear that saved him seem to fit perfectly. Why did you move the big smiley grin to the end of the statements that wasn't originally there, was that on purpose?

 

[blacknblue]

Since most had no idea who SkyClimber is I have no problem with her listing some things that would seem to dictate experience as an output, I do not think it was bragging in the least it was put out when she felt she was being attacked as less experienced. She has 100's of post on multi forums and it is the first I recall her doing such. How could an opinion on winter hiking from one of the most experience female winter climbers not be considered valuable information?

Since this seems to be directed at my post, let me clarify that I do not think it was bragging either. However, it did imply that her experience should grant her arguments more weight. I am saying that arguments only carry weight to the extent that they are sound. Often times, yes, more experienced hikers have developed more sound arguments about outdoor travel, and therefore I do tend to pay more attention to experienced hikers. Pretty much everything I've learned about hiking, camping, climbing, skiing, (and many other pursuits) have come from picking up tips from more experienced people along the way.

In this case, however, based solely on the merits of the argument, I disagree, mainly because the argument failed to acknowledge the particularities of the individual situations we find ourselves in.

By the way, you don't know who I am either, but listing my credentials seems irrelevant.

 

[cushetunk]

The thing that bugs me about a suggestion like "don't ever leave your pack" is that it implies that being in the woods is somehow fundamentally different than normal life. In normal life we just take what we need and we go. For me, I am out in the woods all the time... for work, for play, for hiking, for skiing, for living (I spent several recent winters living a mile from a plowed road). When all those lines got blurred, most "hiking" rules didn't make much sense... mostly because I never knew what qualified as a hike! (Did I need the ten essentials to get to my car?)

More importantly, though, I think hard and fast rules in the woods contribute to this horrible sense that we don't belong. That nature will chew us up and spit us out the minute that we don't have that extra fleece. It's just not true, and I think it is entirely the wrong attitude for co-existing with nature... whether on a hike or in daily life. Yes, nature can be very very nasty. But, why have everything you need for the worst on a day that is the best? Or, as someone else pointed out, why is leaving a fleece in the car acceptable, but if you leave it along the trail it is the Worst Thing Ever?

 

[Tim Seaver]

It's not what you say...

How could an opinion on winter hiking from one of the most experience female winter climbers not be considered valuable information?

It's the presentation of opinion as indisputable facts that gets under people's skin, made worse by the assertion that not following a particular protocol makes one an irresponsible or lazy hiker/climber. This point has been made over and over in this thread, but somehow it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

 

[Neil]

I sure wish being out in the woods was my normal life.

When you think of guys like Messner and some of these Poles who are tougher than nails doing solo and winter 8000 meter peaks all of this is brought into perspective.

The best gear that I ever carried on any hike was my fitness level and my neuro-musculo-skeletal system. I always take those right to the top.

 

[Maddy]

QUOTE/Maddy
Would the individuals who leave their packs to go lite and fast expect those of us who carry all our gear to just hand it over if we encountered them sick or injured on the mountain?
Would that not be endangering two people because the rescuer would no longer be carrying their own emergency gear as he or she headed down to get help?
[/QUOTE]

When we decide to take a risk because we are strong and experienced, should we also reflect on how our decision might potentially adversely affect another hiker if we should have the serious misfortune of ending up lying in the snow, staring at our open tib-fib fracture, miles from nowhere?
OK...statistics say chances are slim but whose counting when you are the one writhing in pain.
How many who thought it was worth the risk, did not come back alive? (Not Without Peril)
Should it be someone else's responsibility to go fetch a pack which was dropped, God knows where, because hiker extrordinaire is presently incapacitated?
I think taking all the risks you could possibly conjure up is a wonderful thing but only if one places no one else in harm's way.

 

[David Metsky]

Should it be someone else's responsibility to go fetch a pack which was dropped, God knows where, because hiker extrordinaire is presently incapacitated?
I think taking all the risks you could possibly conjure up is a wonderful thing but only if one places no one else in harm's way.

Going into the woods puts others in harms way. Crossing the street puts others in harms way. If you look at the interconnected nature of life, everything we do has the potential to impact others.

But, none of that should stop people from taking reasonable and reasoned risks. We all draw that line in different places. Hard and fast rules, especially ones that come with the implied message that anyone who violates these rules is putting others at risk, make it seem that there is only one right path.

Some hikers like to have all possible gear to take care of all eventualities; they're rarely caught off guard. But they can easily be slowed down by all that they carry and spend a night out that wasn't needed. Others follow the mantra that speed is safety, carry just enough to meet their own requirements for feeling prepared, and rely on their fitness, knowledge, experience, and willingness to turn around to give them a comfort zone. They may occasionally be forced to spend an uncomfortable night out or hike for 24-hours to make it out.

Most I suspect are somewhere in between. Different situations require different decisions. It's probably better for newbies to lean towards the first type while they learn more, but everyone can move along the spectrum fairly quickly.

No one way is the ultimate in safe travel. We all find our own path - acknowledging that rescuers, loved ones, and other hikers may be impacted by our decisions is important. But it also pays to acknowledge that there are many paths to safety.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

I agree with your two cents Dr D and that the "ultra runners" on Easter would be a bad example.

But how is the Franconia ridge one bad? Because it is not exact and they were planning a traverse instead of an out and back like they actually did? How much closer to summit climbing does the example need to be? The sleeping bag and gear that saved him seem to fit perfectly. Why did you move the big smiley grin to the end of the statements that wasn't originally there, was that on purpose?

My smiley face was purposely placed inside my closed parenthesis, meaning that I was laughing at myself for extending hiking to "life endeavors" in general, nothing more, nothing less.

"(or, in a lot of life endeavors, for that matter; gag! )."

I still think that the the Franconia Ridge example from last winter does not make sense as an analogy for dropping a pack in a col because none of the three hikers ever considered dropping their packs in a col or anywhere else because they were backpacking a point-to-point route.

The Lafayette ultra runners might have been a good analogy IF they had dropped their gear at Greenlead Hut before heading up into the din, but apparently they went light (fanny packs only) from the parking lot.

We are still looking for an example of someone leaving a pack at a col and then getting into trouble higher up. Perhaps other SAR folks can contribute such an example, as I cannot come up with one myself.

 

[Grumpy]

... No one way is the ultimate in safe travel. We all find our own path - acknowledging that rescuers, loved ones, and other hikers may be impacted by our decisions is important. But it also pays to acknowledge that there are many paths to safety.

This is a wonderful comment, and one with which the libertarian in me agrees wholeheartedly.

I wonder, though, how it holds up in a society bent on enacting and enforcing "reckless hiker" laws. Or on an internet discussion board where schnooks who in some way miscalculate the equation and find themselves in trouble are judged.

G.

 

[Snowflea]

*Corrected version* It was late when I first posted this...

Dr. Dasypodidae said:

"We are still looking for an example of someone leaving a pack at a col and then getting into trouble higher up."

There's a sort-of (subjects got themselves out of their pickle) example in Laura and Guy Waterman's book Wilderness Ethics (which IMHO--not that I'm telling anyone what to do! --should be required reading for White Mtn. trampers). In the Chapter "Winter Above Treeline," page 183 in my edition, they recount a 1968 winter Presidential traverse attempt, where a father (Guy) and his son (Johnny?) leave their packs on the south side of Jefferson in sketchy weather "...and they delighted in the freedom of an easy dash uphill without packs and with the wind at their backs."

On their descent, however, the clouds rolled in, the wind picked up, and both became completely disoriented. Complicating matters, the "father" had left his compass in a shirt which was stowed in his pack. They were left to guess on the correct route down, and when finally able to ascertain exactly where they were, realized they were 180 degrees off course, on the north side of the mountain. After another long plod across the Jefferson snowfield, they were eventually reuinited with their by now ice-encrusted packs.

Now everyone, go out and buy the book from The Mountain Wanderer!

(FWIW, I think there's a big difference between leaving one's pack above treeline and, say, leaving it at Galehead Hut in order to climb Galehead, but that's just me...)

Stinkyfeet

 

[Maddy]

But, none of that should stop people from taking reasonable and reasoned risks.
But it also pays to acknowledge that there are many paths to safety.

Reasonable and reasoned risk. These are the key words here.
There are definitely many "paths to safety" but I fail to see how leaving your pack in a col, going light and fast for say the last 1/2 mile, will serve you well if you end up lying in the snow with your open tib-fib fracture and can't walk. If you carry emergency gear it should be available to you at all times or it serves no purpose. I don't think not having it readily accessible is the "path to safety". Accidents give no warning and no one is exempt from having one.
Now if you are with a group...not as much of a problem.
If you are solo, or with only one other player...big problem!
I just cannot buy into the fact that this is "reasonable risk". Much valuable time will be lost retrieving the packs, setting you up for a long cold night, and then going for help.
Let's hope you are not faced with the ultimate fiasco, being completely alone with your pack in the col.
It's like taking your kid for a ride.
Yes there is risk but it is not unreasonable.
However, if you take this same child for a ride and tell him both of you are not going to wear seat belts because you are only going to the corner store this is unreasonable and probably not worth the risk