Wildcat pass required for hikers?

[bikehikeskifish]

I asked Wildcat:

Is there some reason Wildcat cannot get its act together and present a simple, unified story on whether or not and when hikers can use Polecat? It's not that weird of a request, yet one cannot get a clear answer in e-mails, and when I called today, the person on the phone was clearly annoyed that I might want to use the traditional Polecat descent for a loop of Wildcat A and D.

Wildcat responded

Tim, Thank you for voicing your concern. If a hiker chooses to ascend the route described in our Uphill Access Statement (approved by the US Forest Service), visit http://www.skiwildcat.com/trails.html for a full version of our uphill access policy, it is required that you purchase a ticket containing the WMSA liability waiver.
While this policy is not new, confusion may occur because this is the first time we have posted this policy online, in the interest of safety for our customers and others who choose to access the trails.
In the case of a hiking descent we only ask that you check in with patrol prior to hiking down and that you do not sled. Please know that it is not the intent of Wildcat Mountain to impede access to trails but, hope to make the mountain safer for both our customers and others who choose to access the trails. Thank you for your patience and please know that you may contact me by email at [email protected], call 466-3326 x216 or meet with me in person if you have further concerns.

Then I said

Well I bought a ticket and hiked up yesterday. I spoke to 7 difference people and got 5 different stories. This is the source of infinite confusion for hikers. I met a few other people who didn't buy the ticket. One of three ski patrollers asked for my ticket, and when I asked what he would do if I didn't have one, he said "nothing". Two other patrollers said they didn't care either. The parking lot attendants said "it's WMNF, go right on and hike", and Celeste in Guest Services said a pass was needed, even to come down, which the web page you mentioned above says nothing about. The ski patrol said if I go up 19 Mile Brook to A peak, and over to D, and down Polecat, there is no ticket required.

The response from Wildcat was:

Tim, as stated in my response above, you may contact me by email at [email protected],call 466-3326 x216 or meet with me in person if you have further concerns. Guest Services was correct in saying that a pass was needed. According ...to our Uphill Access statement, that can be found at http://www.skiwildcat.com/trails.html , “Uphill access to Wildcat Mountain by lift or climbing, hiking or any manual assent is given only after a lift ticket, or skyride ticket has been purchased for the day or with a seasonal pass." Patrol was correct in saying that there is no charge for only hiking down.

Bob n Geri asked about dogs, but no response yet.

The above "confirms" my theory that unless you are starting uphill from ski area, you should not have to pay or have a pass.

Tim

 

[JustJoe]

So according to their policy Tim, which is now posted online, you have to purchase a lift-ticket or sky-ride ticket. I see no 3rd option. So is it the sky-ride ticket you purchased which I assume is the cheapest. And, I see no mention of that along with a price in the ticket/pass section.

 

[bobandgeri]

​

Interesting. So does this mean that the Forest Service has approved the change to the terms allowing a fee to be charged for hiking uphill? Or is this statement mean the forest service approves that hikers should stick to the route as described (but not for charging a fee)? Now I am kind of confused as well!

Brian

Perhaps they always could charge but didn't. The response we received from the Forest Service pointed out that one could buy a pass in order to hike the mountain uphill, so they apparantly do approve that Wildcat can do so if it choices. They also agree that Wildcat can restrict access to trails other than operating hours, except in the case of a downhill hike being required after hours for safety concerns, restrict dogs, determine what trails you can hike on, etc..

 

[bikehikeskifish]

​

Perhaps they always could charge but didn't. The response we received from the Forest Service pointed out that one could buy a pass in order to hike the mountain uphill, so they apparantly do approve that Wildcat can do so if it choices. They also agree that Wildcat can restrict access to trails other than operating hours, except in the case of a downhill hike being required after hours for safety concerns, restrict dogs, determine what trails you can hike on, etc..

Here is the entire conversation.

https://www.facebook.com/WildcatMountain/posts/10150658297737359

They apparently don't wish to continue engaging me in public. I was as nice as I could possibly be, but they are clearly not welcoming hikers.

I bought "up hill access" pass ($10), not good for lifts. It looks like this:

Tim

 

[JustJoe]

Thanks for all your, and anyone else's time, who's been dealing with Wildcat and the FS. Not to be nit-picking, but it looks like the pass says $20.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Tim - in all fairness to Wildcat, part of the FB dialogue said -

"Wildcat Mountain...Patrol was correct in saying that there is no charge for only hiking down. Monday at 6:18am · Like

Tim Lucia What happens if we arrive at the summit of Wildcat D, perhaps having come across the Carter Range, and it is after the lifts have closed?"

You asked them a question they'd just answered (no charge for down only).

Also - asking them about a fee for parking in their lot, while it might not be seen as contentious in another context, is a bit over the top, IMO.

FWIW - My sense is that "doing the Wildcats" usually means going up 19MBT and down Polecat to me and my hiking friends. I think I've only ever done it once or twice in a counterclockwise fashion, and then started up from the Lost Pond trail and then out 19MBT. For me, given the new Wildcat policy, the $10 is a non-issue as I'll make sure I only descend it now.

I think Wildcat has adopted a reasonable approach, especially given the problem sledders and others have caused in the past. The hiking community needs to be good neighbors also.

 

[RoySwkr]

I think Wildcat has adopted a reasonable approach, especially given the problem sledders and others have caused in the past. The hiking community needs to be good neighbors also.

I think $10 is a rip-off price considering the incremental cost of hikers, if they only wanted to charge $1 to make sure the liability waiver was in effect that would be different.

I hope the FS charges Wildcat a hefty % of this new fee for amending their lease.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Thanks for all your, and anyone else's time, who's been dealing with Wildcat and the FS. Not to be nit-picking, but it looks like the pass says $20.

Yeah, I bought one for me and one for loanshark - 2 x $10 = $20.

Tim - in all fairness to Wildcat, part of the FB dialogue said

You asked them a question they'd just answered (no charge for down only).

Also - asking them about a fee for parking in their lot, while it might not be seen as contentious in another context, is a bit over the top, IMO.

FWIW - My sense is that "doing the Wildcats" usually means going up 19MBT and down Polecat to me and my hiking friends. I think I've only ever done it once or twice in a counterclockwise fashion, and then started up from the Lost Post trail and then out 19MBT. For me, given the new Wildcat policy, the $10 is a non-issue as I'll make sure I only descend it now.

I think Wildcat has adopted a reasonable approach, especially given the problem sledders and others have caused in the past. The hiking community needs to be good neighbors also.

My entire premise was TO BE a good neighbor. Hence my asking, and paying to use the slope when I could have come down for free. Celeste, in guest services, told me I needed a pass to come down as well - in fact she said to be on the trail at all. The Forest Service message was more to the effect that they aren't going to deny you a descent if you are behind schedule, not, by all means, hike up 19MBT and down Polecat. Celeste also suggested strongly that it was worth $10 because they made snow and groomed the trails. Why then is there only a charge for hiking up?

If they understood the popular options (they really don't get the up 19MBT, down Polecat, nor the up Imp, all the way across the Carters and down Polecat which will likely be after the lifts closed and there is nobody to check with at the ski patrol hut to remain in compliance with their policy), they could write a very simple, clear policy which wouldn't have us all scratching our heads. And then, they could get all their staff to understand it.

I believe it is pretty clear at this point, except for the dogs - since ski patrol didn't seem to mind them if they were leashed.

Tim

 

[forestgnome]

Really people? Has anyone complaining here ever gotton something wrong? Do we really need to roast good people on the internet because they may have made a little mistake about information that is coming from the bohemoth beauracracy known as the US Govt.? Do you think the issue of hiker access is the only thing on the mind of the very nice person who oversees guest services at a major ski area? Wow.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

You may view it as roasting, I view it as striving for clarification. If, professionally, I design software that is confusing, it leads to support calls. Support calls cost the company money. This is not any different - the confusion is costing Wildcat money. I expect the top people to know the rules. I don't expect the parking lot attendants to know them, but it's not a bad thing if they do. I do expect the enforcers (ski patrol) to know them, and they were pretty consistent.

Tim

 

[TCD]

The other way an organization can avoid this kind of thing costing money is to make sure everyone knows it's a low priority, and to spend as little time as possible. In other words "I know the rules are fuzzy, but these hikers are just a tiny distraction! Spend as little time on it as you can, and by God keep them out of Management's hair." I expect there's some of that in this situation.

To Forestgnome's point, it's easy to forget when you're on VFTT that hiking is not the whole world. Ski area operations are large and complex, with numerous departments, lots of issues, lots of risk, crowds, etc. Like I said at the beginning of the thread. The ski area and all its departments, including Patrol, have a ton of responsibilities, ALL of which are more important than our little "tempest in a teapot." I expect that when Parking guys, or Patrol, or Ticket booth people are working and they see a hiker coming, the thought process is "Oh God, not another one of these guys." The fact that most of the time hikers are treated politely, and are given reasonably consistent information, is a tribute to the patience of these employees.

So it makes sense to pursue clarification through the FS, and through senior management at Wildcat. But I would leave the Wildcat employees out of this quest. They are working, as directed by Management on what the customers think is important. And 99% of the customers don't know, or care, about hiking.

 

[erugs]

The couple of messages above mine make sense. What I keep coming back to is:

1. Clarification on what is allowed is good information, while a variety of answers only brings out more questions, which in turn tightens the screws on rules.

and, primarily,

2. Gratitude for any access that is granted, whether under the cloak of some staff quietly letting the useage by hikers go on or a more generous ruling from the management. If the ski area wasn't there, then the "route" would be a bushwack and many hikers wouldn't be on it. How nice for many that Pole Cat is easy to follow and easy under foot. It's not as though skiers are coming down a groomed hiking trail. How many bag the Wildcats because they wouldn't want to go in any other way?

 

[forestgnome]

You may view it as roasting, I view it as striving for clarification. If, professionally, I design software that is confusing, it leads to support calls. Support calls cost the company money. This is not any different - the confusion is costing Wildcat money. I expect the top people to know the rules. I don't expect the parking lot attendants to know them, but it's not a bad thing if they do. I do expect the enforcers (ski patrol) to know them, and they were pretty consistent.

Tim

Agree with TCD and Ellen...

Tim, I agree that the conflicting info has been less than desireable, but I believe at this point there really is no confusion on the major point: you need to buy a pass to hike the slopes. If selling passes to hikers was more than .001 of what they handle at guest services, I'm quite sure the answer would have been more clear.

And I think, WADR, that naming the very nice person in guest services by name on the web is bad form. She has a very complex set of responsibilities and she does an excellent job. She's a professional.

 

[cushetunk]

And I think, WADR, that naming the very nice person in guest services by name on the web is bad form.

I agree 100% with forestgnome. Unless discussing the people who actually make policy, there's no reason to be calling anyone out by name.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

You have your opinion. It is different from mine. I was not impressed by her at all. I gave my full name. I shook hands. I was polite and professional. That courtesy was not always returned. I told her, and everyone I spoke to, I wanted to get the straight story and carry it back here so that the confusion and questions would settle down.

The person I mentioned is the head of guest services - she is not an hourly worker at the ticket counter. She should have the story straight. In my opinion. The preceding day, she, or someone in her office gave me the statement "Why would you ever want to hike the ski slopes when there are dozens of other hiking trails in the area?" rather than "we welcome hikers at Wildcat, but there is a $10 if you are heading up."

While I am opining, this was a golden opportunity to make an immense good-will gesture, like give me a free lift ticket, or a something to encourage me to come there with my family (costing me some $240 in lift ticket fees.) Again, in my opinion, she (they) blew it. Completely.

In the interest of full disclosure, ForestGnome, I believe you are an instructor at Wildcat? Or at least a season pass holder?

Tim

 

[TrishandAlex]

Unless the woman has the opportunity to respond on this forum herself, in order to present her side of the story, then I agree that naming her is bad form. There's no way for her to defend herself, so we're only getting one side of that particular story.

Also agree that there shouldn't be any more confusion at this point, except for the dog issue. Be prepared to pay $10 before you go up, have the $10 with you when you descend just in case.

We are not the priority of the Wildcat ski area. We shouldn't feel like we have to be. It's possible that some skiers choose NOT to ski at Wildcat because they're worried about hikers and dogs in the way. I think that if we become a huge squeaky wheel then we may be denied access entirely. Graciously abiding by the rules and politely asking about paying before we go up, and staying out of the way and being humble about all this may, in the end, make for better hiker-ski resort relations.

 

[pks4000]

Climbing passes for sale?

What a bowl....errr ahhh crock this access pass seems.

To this Old Indian, it's more sad than anything else.

As a former ski area Marketing Director and GM at Loon Mt. Recreation Corp. I can empathize with the area.

But as a climber I'm upset.

A large component of ski area lift ticket prices is the cost of liability insurance.

For those of you who are curious.....
It all stems back to (James) Sunday vs Stratton in 1973-4.

At that time, the court's finding in favor of the Sunday family, caused me to raise our ticket prices at Loon from 14 -17 dollars a day, peak period (weekends and holidays).
IMHO
Any climber who sued a ski area for negligence would be tarred and feathered by her /his peer group.
Instead of charging a fee at a ticket office that may not be open..... have a "Liability Waiver Card" with the patrol.

It's civil,quick and relatively non-intrusive.

FYI When I climb ski areas which I often do with full alpine equiptment on my pack (41lbs) I climb in the dark (am) with a torch, timing my summit arrival with dawn.

You get the Mt. at its best. Its sublime,sweet and slightly religeous ......in a good way.

 

[McRat]

Let's all sing along...

"As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!".

 

[erugs]

Just spent three great days at Saddleback. Friday, just chillin, eatin', etc. Saturday checked in to see about hiking, and learned they really do welcome us "not everyone in a group enjoys skiing, but we want them to feel included here." Sunday, we stayed and skied. Besides buying food and drink, we also spent some money in their gear shop.

 

[erugs]

We were also welcomed in the warming hut at the top of one of the lifts. (We were the two with the hot chocolate, not the beer. )