Winter Camping Questions

[Pete_Hickey]

But if the weather outside is bad, then the bottle may be preferable to putting on and removing all the extra clothing.

I never bother getting dressed to go out. Not worth the trouble for me. It isn't THAT long, and the sleeping bag feels SO GOOD when you get back. Although I do remember a time when it was very cold, and I started shivering violently... got myself in the face.... Again. that only happens once.

You may want to practice your technique in the shower before using it in the field.

Much better than the back seat of a crowded bus. Please don't ask me how I know that.

 

[Lawn Sale]

Huh???? How cold are you talking about? Or are you thinking butane? Aren't al the huts in the Whites (as well as many homes) equipped with propane for cooking (heat) Or are you thinking of propane used as an auto fuel, which works somewhat differently?

FWIW, I would never take any heating apatarus. Wasted weight. Little insulation to keep in that heat. I'd rather waste the weight on something like a tortilla press of something like that.

Nope, propane. A few of the others people around us that were tenting decided to bring the lanterns and heaters that took the 1 lb propane bottles, and every one of them died off in about 15 minutes due to the cold.

 

[sleeping bear]

Agreed about the propane. I took a propane lantern on a rather mild trip a few winters ago (20s-30s) and it never worked. I tried putting it in my parka and then taping hand warmers to the bottle, not a thing. Waste of weight and space. Candles are the way to go for light (and warmth in a quinzee). A couple of candles burning inside your snow shelter can raise the temp by 10-15 degrees and produces more than enough light to hang out, read, whatever.

As far as footwear once you're in camp, these boots + booties = the best combination ever for people whose feet get cold easily. My feet get cold stading around at 40 degrees, but I've never had cold feet with these, even sitting around at temps below zero.

My personal opinion is that a down parka (preferably with hood) is essential for comfortable winter camping.

 

[duane]

Speaking of winter camping...

Does down fill necessarily equate to greater warmth? I'm looking at two 0 degree Mountain Hardware sleeping bags, one is 600 fill down (3 lbs 4 oz) the other is 800 fill (2 lbs 6 oz). Besides weight & cost, the 800 fill is $100 more, do you suppose they are both similar with respect to the 0 degree rating?

 

[DougPaul]

Does down fill necessarily equate to greater warmth? I'm looking at two 0 degree Mountain Hardware sleeping bags, one is 600 fill down (3 lbs 4 oz) the other is 800 fill (2 lbs 6 oz). Besides weight & cost, the 800 fill is $100 more, do you suppose they are both similar with respect to the 0 degree rating?

Insulation value is primarily related to total loft (thickness of insulation)--it is basically independent of the fill power of the down used to achieve the loft.

The fill power numbers are cu in / oz and reflect the degree to which the down will expand.

One would expect a 0F bag to have 6-8 inches of loft.

Doug

 

[expat]

hydration

Just an additional word to those who might want to avoid evening liquids in order not to have to pee at night. I didn't do this, but on one trip I apparently didn't drink enough. Several days after the trip I had my first bout with kidney stones, probably brought about by not staying hydrated on the winter trip.

 

[sleeping bear]

Yeah, getting up at night to pee does suck, but dehydration can make you more suseptable to hypothermia. Your body needs that liquid to help regulate temperature. It's common to not feel hungry or thirsty in the cold too, I beleive the body shuts down some of those sensors when the temp drops. I like to try and drink a big mug of hot cocoa every time the stove gets fired up. It's a lot easier to drink warm drinks than sip from a frosty water bottle. Plus the hot cocoa gives you calories to burn.

Along the same lines, if you're cold in your bag at night and you have to pee, you should go. Your body has to work to keep that liquid warm inside of you, so getting rid of it saves some energy. Plus getting up and moving around, even for a minute or two outside where it's cold gets the blood moving. I don't think I've ever gotten back into my bag (post pee trip) and still been cold.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Nope, propane. A few of the others people around us that were tenting decided to bring the lanterns and heaters that took the 1 lb propane bottles, and every one of them died off in about 15 minutes due to the cold.

Take one of those 20 pound BBQ tanks, and it'll work in the cold. I suspect that those 1 pound thingys have moisture problems.

 

[SherpaKroto]

A few more thoughts:

• a screw off Gatorade powdered bottle for your PEE bottle isn't likely to feel like any of your other bottles at night - and it is "free"

• If you dig right down to bare ground, you can easily build a sustainable fire

• Gather wood without bark - it will smoke less

• A small saw (I use the SawVivor). It's ALWAYS in my Subaru when I'm not hiking.

• Bring AMPLE repair items for gear. Failed gear in deep winter snows (you remember deep snow don't you?) can be deadly.

That's all I can think of that hasn't been mentioned...

 

[DougPaul]

• A small saw (I use the SawVivor). It's ALWAYS in my Subaru when I'm not hiking.

I bought one, tried it, was disappointed, and returned it. The frame is too flimsy, bends, and doesn't keep the blade tensioned.

The Gerber Gator Folding saw and the Sven saw (the larger one is better) are both much better. Was just out using both of them clearing blowdowns from the MA AT today...
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Pro...75&parent_category_rn=4500579&vcat=REI_SEARCH
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Pro...57&parent_category_rn=4500579&vcat=REI_SEARCH

Doug

 

[Neil]

Surprising opinion from a "senior member."

Not an opinion (or an e-pinion ).

We just didn't like getting up night in those chilly Northern Ontarian january nights and we didn't carry bottles. Nor did we have access to the cornucopia of information and opinions available on the net to worry us about dehydration so we just curbed our water intake. The trick was to drink enough so you didn't get thirsty (the word hydrated wasn't in use in those days) before dawn but not so much that we had to pee in the night. We sure had to pee when we got up though!

Re the no water bottles: we would drink copiously in the morning and not again until late in the afternoon once we had re-established a water supply. We were usually thirsty but I don't think it made us cold to be "down a quart" since we were always moving or working until drinking.

 

[AOC-1]

Not an opinion (or an e-pinion

Neil, my post was a lame attempt at a joke. I was born during the Eisenhower administration, so I can only look back nostalgically on not having to get up at least once at night. So the word play on "senior" and the other word play on "member."

 

[Neil]

I bought one, tried it, was disappointed, and returned it. The frame is too flimsy, bends, and doesn't keep the blade tensioned.

The Gerber Gator Folding saw and the Sven saw (the larger one is better) are both much better. Was just out using both of them clearing blowdowns from the MA AT today...
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Pro...75&parent_category_rn=4500579&vcat=REI_SEARCH
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Pro...57&parent_category_rn=4500579&vcat=REI_SEARCH

Doug

I bought a Sawvivor at MEC in Montreal but before using it I read a post by Doug-paul wherein he said he had tried it and found it to be nowhere as good as the Sven saw. So, I went back to Mec and said I wanted a refund. Of course they wanted to know why and when I said because it's no good they asked, "On whose authority do you say such a thing"? All I had to say was, " Doug-Paul's" and I had my refund, just like that.

 

[Neil]

Neil, my post was a lame attempt at a joke. I was born during the Eisenhower administration, so I can only look back nostalgically on not having to get up at least once at night. So the word play on "senior" and the other word play on "member."

Actually, I thought it might be a joke and thought about the prostate angle but wasn't sure. I also thought about the "dangers of hypothermia due to inadequate hydration" angle. The member pun went right over my head.

 

[DougPaul]

Of course they wanted to know why and when I said because it's no good they asked, "On whose authority do you say such a thing"? All I had to say was, " Doug-Paul's" and I had my refund, just like that.

Wow! My posts are good for something after all!

I have them so trained at REI and EMS that they will take the Sawvivor back without asking any questions. (Of course, their satisfaction guaranteed return policy has nothing to do with it...)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Re the no water bottles: we would drink copiously in the morning and not again until late in the afternoon once we had re-established a water supply. We were usually thirsty but I don't think it made us cold to be "down a quart" since we were always moving or working until drinking.

I try to keep the tank topped off.

Dehydration is a factor in hypothermia and frostbite. It also reduces one's physical performance--being down as little as 1% (1 liter for a 200 pounder) has a surprisingly large effect (sorry, don't remember the exact numbers off hand--I think it is on the order of 20-30%). Again, IIRC you don't feel thirsty until you are over somewhere over 1% dehydrated...

Took a quick look in the usual references, couldn't find this info. I think I got it from my winter school or an outdoors medicine course taught by the medical department of my college, both ~1975.

Doug

 

[KayakDan]

Ya gotta love this site...

Where else could you get such an extensive and stimulating conversation about peeing in the woods!

 

[Nessmuk]

I've noticed that when I hike or paddle really hard, even though I am hydrating as much as I think i should, I don't have to pee much during the day. I most notice it during the 90 mile canoe race when I am really puting out all day long I hardly pee at all, though I am drinking a lot. But when I get to the campsite and finally relax, I have to go a couple of times an hour all evening.

The same thing happened last year when I hiked and paddled across the Adirondacks in the July heat. On hard sweaty days I drank gallons, but did not pee hardly at all until at night. After my toughest very tiring day of mostly bushwhacking and carrying the canoe overland, that night I had to get up out of my hammock 5 times even though I stopped drinking well before going to sleep. It was aggravating. Anyone else notice this effect after a hard day of exercise?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I can attest to marathon bike rides (5+ hours, 100+ miles) and marathon XC trips (4+ hours) -- I rarely have to take a break for output, while I am certain to take care of input all the while.

I can attest also that hiking seems to having me taking care of output more frequently then the other two. Not sure why. It's much less effort to find a convenient place for sure. I can hypothesize that it is because of the nature of hiking where I stop to take in the view, photos, wait up, or otherwise rest on occasion, where perspiration slows down, allowing the bladder to fill up. I tend not to stop while cycling or XC skiing. I've never hiked with my heart rate monitor, but I suspect the average heart rate is lower (I don't tend to "hammer" my hikes like I do cycling and skiing), so this may be another cause -- lower intensity, less cooling required.

I can say in all cases that I sweat out the majority of my H2O while exercising, and so I am not at all surprised I don't have to pee it out.

I suspect in my own case the increased output post-activity is as a result of insuring I am re-hydrated.

Tim

 

[TomD]

My experience in various sports is that you are sweating out a lot of water, even if you don't notice it. Once I was drinking as much as possible while working outside in hot weather-or at least thought I was- and got heatstroke-didn't pass out, but close to it.

You are using a lot more water than you think. Once your urine turns a dark yellow or even orange (which some vitamins like B12 will also cause) then you are seriously short of water and need to start hydrating right away.

However, it is possible to drink too much water. I read this in relation to marathon runners who seem dehydrated, but have actually taken in too much water and have diluted their electrolytes too much. The common remedy is more water, but that makes it worse.

Here's just one of many articles I found on this-
http://tinyurl.com/vhwaa

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