XCountry Skiis

[SherpaKroto]

...I like the idea of wandering into the woods/mountians with the skiis as well.

Sounds to me like BC skiing. I love my setup of Karhu Nomad boots (no longer made), Karhu Pavo skis, and Voile 3-pin cable binding setup for off track, and my Fischer Crowns with Salomon binsings and boots for tracked. They main difference is that the off track skis have a bit of sidecut, are stiffer, and have metal edges. I only use waxless, but true XC/BC folks know that the proper wax will yield better results.

You said that money is always a consideration? Lots of tracked/untracked places to go for free, but I always prefer metal edges when I do that.

pinnah's site has a wealth of info.

 

[sardog1]

HOLY SHIIIIIIII......
Off the top of my head, I'd like a pair that's good for everything . . .

The classic definition of cross country skis, before the market brought a flood of specialized equipment. In the old days, it was skill in waxing and your skiing technique -- not equipment -- that largely determined whether you could climb the hill and make it back down again.

There's a reason the original Rottefella "rat trap" binding was successful and is being copied to this day. It's not all nostalgia for the woolen knickers era that drives its sales in 2007.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Hey I'd like a pair of boots that does everything, or a hat that does everything, or wait wait... a TRACTION device that does everything. Not going to get any of those either. Well, they do "everything" only so-so and excel at nothing.

1. Look for a good shop -- I can personally recommend the West Hill shop in Putney VT as well as the Nordic Center at Waterville Valley. Try and find a place that is a Nordic shop or center rather than a generic ski shop.
2. Rent and take lessons. A good shop will probably credit you some of the rental fees towards the purchase of equipment. Proper fit, technique and gear understanding are instrumental in your enjoyment of the sport. Try various pole lengths with each pair of boots and skis. Shorter skis and poles are easier to maneuver for the skier at the beginning of the learning curve. Longer skis and poles translate into speed but are harder to turn and "turn over" (poling) while learning.
3. Look at the year-end sales - including rental 'fleet' sell-offs for good deals on higher end equipment that maybe slightly used.
4. I can recommend an excellent ski tuning and grinding service if you find a good price on used skis with many light (not deep) scratches: http://www.caldwellsport.com/ -- for all you other ski fans here's a chance to get like-new (or better in many cases!) bases on your existing skis.

For BC skiing, substitute "BC" for "Nordic" above, and I can't comment on qualified shops. Pinnah's site is good, but you're better off taking a weekday and spending it at a good shop. You can't ask the site questions or hold the equipment in your hands.

Tim

 

[Stan]

For what it's worth I've never seen a 3-pin binding fail but have seen the pins come out of boots and have seen skiers struggling with iced up boot pins. Tradeoff seems to be that the selection of 3-pin boots is limited.

 

[sardog1]

For what it's worth I've never seen a 3-pin binding fail but have seen the pins come out of boots and have seen skiers struggling with iced up boot pins. Tradeoff seems to be that the selection of 3-pin boots is limited.

As with children and dogs, the early training of three-pin (aka 75 mm) systems will go far in avoiding the first problem. Careless closing of the bail when the pins aren't in the boot sole holes will cause problems down the line.

With the addition of a cable around the heel, you're close to bombproof for getting back out again. (Unless there are ligaments and/or tendons involved . . . )

It can be a little tough finding 75 mm boots, but there are many more brands and styles being manufactured than most shops carry. Check the 'Net to see what's actually out there. And some of us have scored some real treasures on "that auction site."

 

[IndianChris]

Wow. Soaking all this in.

I just read through all the posts and did some quick (quick) looks on the net. I think I'm liking the BC thing. I want something for ungroomed, fresh snow. I want to be able to leave from my house and head right into the woods or across some fields.

The T3 looks a bit much. The Karhu Nomad boots look pretty good for what I think I'll be using them for (maybe a little on the light side) but unfortunately like was said, they're not made anymore.

I have a bud who works at Sno-Haus...thought I might try to hit him up for a deal.

Still a lot to pick up on.

I like the links to all the great sites. What's the 3-pin thing?

Anyway...thanks for all the replies and keep on posting if you have more info...and of course, the time.

Thanks

 

[DougPaul]

What's the 3-pin thing?

3-pin (aka 75mm Nordic Norm) is an old (manufacturer independent) binding standard. My favorite is the Rottefella Super Telemark Binding (a heavy duty 3-pin binding): http://www.skirack.com/browse.cfm/4,212.htm.
Karhu: http://www.akers-ski.com/Merchant2/...OD&Product_Code=34K75&Category_Code=bcbinding
Voile also makes one that can be used with or without a cable: http://www.skirack.com/browse.cfm/4,162.htm
(Google can find a number of sources for any of them.)

The 3-pin binding is a well proven binding that is tough enough for BC use, light-duty Telemarking, and is relatively field maintainable. Many 3-pin boots are also beefy enough for BC use.

And yes, I prefer 3-pin to the new-fangled company-proprietary bindings that most stores will try to sell to you...

Doug

 

[sardog1]

Among the many virtues of the Rottefella Super Telemark is the ability to close and open the binding with a ski pole tip while you're upright. This is a huge advantage when you're carrying a pack of any consequence.

 

[IndianChris]

So for boots it's mostly about the cuff (how much support) and the toe flexibility, right?

What is this SNS, NNN...stuff?

 

[David Metsky]

So for boots it's mostly about the cuff (how much support) and the toe flexibility, right?

It's first about fit. Lateral stability will determine if the boot is good for turning. Some boots can take crampons but it doesn't sound like that will be an issue. All boots flex, that's not much of an issue. Boot height and stiffness will determine how easy a boot will tour vs turn.

What is this SNS, NNN...stuff?

SNS - Soloman Nordic System
NNN - New Nordic Norm

These are two boot/binding systems that were introduced in the past 15-20 years. They are proprietary - meaning if you buy a NNN binding you need an NNN boot. They work by having a small metal bar in front of the toe that locks into the binding. They are (in general) easier to use, less able to turn, and lighter weight.

Each also has a beefier version for backcountry; NNN-BC and SNS-something. Those are incompatible with the regular NNN and SNS systems. If you are talking about backcountry I would choose one of these or 75mm.

 

[sardog1]

Okay, for the benefit of this and future generations, herein a short history of cross country bindings.

In the beginning, Lapps created the toe strap a few thousand years ago. It is rumored that this device persisted even into the middle of the 20th century among certain Scandinavian-American enclaves. (Sure wish I'd had the foresight as a kid to hold onto some, until the advent of eBay and the nostalgic urges among some restaurant and lodge owners . . . )

The toe strap begat the toe and heel strap in the mid 1800s, in which tension around the heel kept the boot in the binding. The toe and heel strap evolved into a metal cable attached to a metal toe piece. (Believe it or not, these latter bindings were also used on downhill/Alpine skis for many years, keeping entire armies of orthopedic surgeons gainfully employed.)

In 1927, a Norwegian skier/inventor named Bror With showed up at a ski race with a pair of bindings he had designed. They featured a bail that locked over a lip on the boot and three pins that fit into holes on the soles under the toes. The crown prince of Norway was in the race and asked him what that was on his skis. With replied, "Oh, these are just some rat-traps that I made," and an empire was born. Rat trap in Norwegian is "rottefelle" ("rottefella" in the definite form.)

The Rottefella binding design ruled the roost for the next fifty years among cross country types. Sometimes they were sold with cable bindings, sometimes not. Until the industry settled on one standard width of 75 mm several years ago, the Rottefella-type bindings were sold in various widths to accommodate different boot sizes.

The 75 mm sole width (aka "Nordic Norm") now appears in all "three pin" binding systems, whether they include heel cables or not. The 75 mm width standard was also adopted for the "free heel" telemark bindings that started appearing in the 70s, but these don't always incorporate the three pins.

The NNN ("New Nordic Norm") and SNS ("Salomon Nordic System") are "newer" binding types that use a metal rod imbedded across the toe end of the boot sole. This rod clips into the binding, providing a somewhat different flex and control than the three pin system. NNN bindings fit only NNN boots, and SNS bindings fit only SNS boots. If you're shopping for either of these binding systems, you pick your boots first to make sure you can get a good fit, then you take your pick among the compatible bindings. NNN and SNS bindings come in different flavors for different skiing types. The "BC" designation on some of them indicates a wider, beefier construction for backcountry use. BC versions will not work with ordinary NNN and SNS versions, so make real sure your boot fits your binding.

Things were too simple -- the public was actually starting to understand the nomenclature -- so a conspiracy arose to promote the mysterious, long-promised "New Telemark Norm" NTN binding and boot system. Rottefella teased skiers for several years with this, and it's finally on the market. Black Diamond wanted to make sure that consumers would spend more time reading about binding systems than actually skiing, so they came up with an entirely new system very recently.

Sigh.

 

[DougPaul]

Dave.M's BC skiing pages answer a number of your questions.
Bindings: http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-bindings.html
Check out 3-pin.

Boots: http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-boots.html
I think a Snowfield class boot is likely to be a good fit to your needs.

Skis: http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html
Focus on his "traditional touring" or "old school teles".

I use an Asolo Snowfield Boot with Rottefella 3-pin bindings and a waxable BC ski with a 65/54/60 mm profile (camber-and-a-half) or a waxless BC ski with a 68/55/60 mm profile. Both skis have metal edges and a center groove. This rig is well suited for BC travel over relatively easy terrain and also work pretty well in set tracks. Something similar to this rig might be good for your needs.

I also have waxable skis with more side-cut (eg 90/67/80, too wide for a set track) and single camber for steeper downhills and turns. It does not kick-and-glide as easily as the above rig. (This is actually a light-weight Tele ski.)

Double camber works well on hard-packed snow, as is typically found in a set track. Double camber makes turning harder and does not work as well on soft snow (as is frequently found in the BC). So for BC you generally want a softer camber.

Skis feel your weight (not your height), and should be sized to match your weight. Length vs weight varies according to the model--consult the tables for the ski that you buy.

Doug

 

[sleeping bear]

I picked up a pair of Alpina backcountry skis last winter with NNN BC bindings and Rosignol BC boots. I thought about them all summer long. Now that the snow is here I can't get enough. They are so much fun.

The skis look like downhill skis, wide and shaped. They have metal edges and 3/4 scales on the bottom. They are fast, float better than my snowshoes and go anywhere. They are like all terrain vehicles for snow. They don't track so well on groomed stuff. Once you get into deep stuff though you won't ever look back. At least I haven't!

Alpina's version for this winter looks even wider and more shapely. Fun fun.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

While completely unfamiliar with BC systems, for completeness I will mention the SNS Pilot which is available in a skate and classic version. For skating, this binding rocks and all elite WC skaters are using it now. The two pins connect to the binding via a spring-loaded system where the ski 'snaps' flat under your foot, rather than hanging tail down from your toe, making it easier to skate as you do not have to raise your boot as high as with NNN/NNN2 or even SNS Profile bindings. It makes making 'skate turns' much easier.

Yes in this day of lighter=faster, bindings evolve, if at the cost of standardization. Both Fischer and Salomon (at least) make boots for the SNS Pilot system (my good skate package is Salomon Equipe 10 skis, SNS Pilot Equipe Skate bindings and Fischer S7000 boots. Note that this is a racing package. (Same deal with pedal systems for bicycles -- no one standard any more, I can name at least 6 off the top of my head.) Good or bad? A little of both - choice is reduced, but performance is improved. Price is increased but fatigue is reduced...

Tim

 

[trailbiscuit]

If I were Indian Chris, my brain would have melted by now!

Chris, here's a set up for you:
Boots*: Rossignol, BC X7 (These are NNN BC, so you'll need matching bindings.)
Skis: Karhu, Escape (The site has a sizing chart.)

This combination will give you a good balance of in-track and backcountry.

Also, go to a cross country ski center first. Try it out, and perhaps even take a lesson.

Really, skiing is fun, and not as complicated as this thread makes it seem.

*Standard Boot Disclaimer: Be certain your boots fit. Otherwise, your experience will be miserable.

 

[DougPaul]

If I were Indian Chris, my brain would have melted by now!

Choosing a ski can be a complicated business--particularly if you are new to the game...

Chris, here's a set up for you:
Boots*: Rossignol, BC X7 (These are NNN BC, so you'll need matching bindings.)
Skis: Karhu, Escape (The site has a sizing chart.)

This combination will give you a good balance of in-track and backcountry.

This ski doesn't have metal edges. Edges are very handy in the BC--better on hard/icy surfaces and they protect the ski from rock damage. Also it only has 5mm of sidecut (sidecut=tip-waist). I'd go for 10-20mm. 10mm is a bit better for straight kick-and-glide, 20mm is better for turning, but still usable in a track if the shovel is narrow enough (<~70mm). (Or pick something in between...) To me, this looks more like a track ski than a BC ski. (Others may reasonably disagree.)

A word on waxless patterns: some skis have negative patterns (cut into an otherwise flat base) and some have positive patters (rise above an otherwise flat base). Negative patterns glide better, but don't grip as well. Positive patterns don't glide as well, but grip better. You will need the grip for BC and will likely be happier with a positive patten. Karhu has developed a positive pattern that grips fairly well and still glides fairly well. (My waxless Karhus glide almost as well as my waxables, but also grip fairly well for a waxless ski. FYI, a properly waxed ski will outglide and outgrip a waxless ski.)

Doug

 

[Chip]

Okay, as long as we're throwing cr@p against IndianChris' wall to see what sticks , here's an example of an Alpine Touring (Randonee) set that I pieced together from sales and ebay. With AT gear your heel is free when traveling, like XC, but you can lock it down and ski normal downhill when you have the opportunity. They don't glide as well as XC, though ;

I got these Atomic Chugach skis delivered for $175. They are shaped, waxless and have a metal edge.

These bindings are available on Ebay for very little. They are not "current" but work fine. If I stick with this type of gear, I'll upgrade the bindings.

I use my Koflach Degres as the boot, and they work great for uphill and flat approaches, and are just "okay" downhill, but don't have enough ankle to do anything too demanding downhill. I recently found a pair of Koflach Randonee boots on ebay, so I'll use these if I'm doing more downhill and the Degres if it's more touring.

Are you ready to say "Uncle" yet ?

 

[David Metsky]

And to split the difference - I think the AT gear not suited for your requirements, and having metal edges would be useful - here's another suggestion.

Something like the Karhu Pinnacle if you think you'll be in tracks or the GT if you don't think you'll be in tracks much. The waxless pattern of the Karhus is pretty good compared to similar skis by Fischer, which I also like but have in waxable version.

You can pair this with leather/combo 75mm boots or NNN-BC. I have a preference for 75mm since I already have 5 pairs of boots with that, but if I weren't planning on going to full on telemark then I'd look at NNN-BC. Karhu has boots of both types, as does Salomon, Rossi, and others. I'm not as familiar with boot models but Pinnah's site has lots of info. The reason I lean towards 75mm is that they are much easier to field repair and less prone to icing problems. But the automatic NNN-BC bindings are pretty sweet.

-dave-

 

[bikehikeskifish]

FYI, a properly waxed ski will outglide and outgrip a waxless ski.

This falls under the "jack of all trades, master of none" or "one size does not fit all" or "you can't do it all with one ski" umbrella, since you wax for the conditions (temp, moisture, crystal shape-new snow, transformed/machine-made) of the day, so you will get custom wax suited for those conditions.. Heck the top elite racers even rill or stone grind a pattern into the ski base during the process further tuning the ski. Me, I have a warmer generic pattern on my rock skis - early/late season and a colder generic pattern on my good ones - mid-season, good base. Back country skis acquire a "field structure" all on their own

I only ski waxless when it would otherwise be klister conditions as I hate cleaning the stuff off prior to hardwaxing.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

FYI, a properly waxed ski will outglide and outgrip a waxless ski.

This falls under the "jack of all trades, master of none" or "one size does not fit all" or "you can't do it all with one ski" umbrella, since you wax for the conditions (temp, moisture, crystal shape-new snow, transformed/machine-made) of the day, so you will get custom wax suited for those conditions..

A waxed ski is a relatively narrow range solution with respect to the snow conditions, but when tuned properly* is very effective. A waxless ski is a one-size-fits-all solution which works over a wide range of conditions, but is optimum nowhere.

* For all you non-waxers--recreational waxing is pretty easy--racers spend 99% of the effort to get the last 1% of speed. It just gets hard in poor conditions such as warm and wet snow (waxless skis work well here).

Since I have both, when the snow is in good and consistent conditions (frequently cold and dry), I ski with waxes to get the best performance. When the snow is in poor and/or inconsistent or very changable conditions (frequently warm and damp), I use the waxless skis. I carry kicker skins and/or full skins for steep uphills and in case I run into bad conditions with the waxable skis. And if the snow is really terrible, I snowshoe...

[quoteHeck the top elite racers even rill or stone grind a pattern into the ski base during the process further tuning the ski. [/quote]
This is fine for racers who get a bunch of new skis from their sponsors every year, but some of us have to pay for our own skis. I personally use "field rilling" (rock scratches) on my BC skis...

I only ski waxless when it would otherwise be klister conditions as I hate cleaning the stuff off prior to hardwaxing.

Klister can work pretty well, but I agree with you (everyone agrees on this one )--it is a bit messy to deal with. I use my waxless skis or snowshoe in klister conditions.

Chris:
Don't worry about klister or skins at this point. Save them for later.

Doug