Advice on the trail...no thanks!

[RGF1]

... more people get killed on sidewalks, than in the mountains. I've seen people wearing sandals and shorts while walking on the sidewalk one time. I told them that if they had to dodge a car when it came flying through the intersection, the sandals would cause them to trip, and when they fell, they'd scrape their knees - they should have worn sneakers and long pants! I just can't believe all those ignorant sidewalkers out there! Instead of thanking me for my kind comments, they told me to "$@&% off". How rude!

I am of the opinion that every adult can look after themselves. The only time I would get involved is if I saw ill prepared kids or an adult with ill prepared children. And even then, there is etiquette in how you come accross: which would you prefer to hear: "You better had brought something warmer than that!!" vs "I heard it's pretty damn cold up there today."

the wall........

Wally you make a good point in your analogy. You are also right in etiquette or lack of. . Who wants to be out on the trail only to have some one start lambasting us for not being up to their standards or having the latest greatest gear.
I know I would probably tell them to $%^&off also. Yes most adults can look after themselves and if they are in need of SAR that is their responsibility. I have no legal standing to force them back down and I do not need to feel superior by making fun of their gear or lack of. I might say it is really miserable up there or something to that effect.
I go hiking to get away from self important and pretentious people not to deal with them on the trail. The only time I will get involved is if there is a immediate need for help as in a injury other emergency. I will help out because I could be that person needing help regardless of experience. I would like to think people would stop and help me even if they have jeans and sneakers on. If some one asks me “hey what is that” “ or how “do you like that piece of equipment” I will tell them But I never offer unsolicited advice. Think about it would you want some one other than a ranger of some sort to lay into you about your gear or where you are going. ?
I have a lot of experience I am willing to share but only if asked and on friendly terms .

 

[Peakbagr]

"How many sorry cotton-clad ***** have you had to carry out, by the way?"

I've been involved with a number of close calls and re-clothed one poor, cotton-clad from head-to-toe winter hiker who was well into hypothermia. The memory of the individual's freezing-cold bare feet up under my shirt on my stomach, and bare hands under my armpits was probably a memory we'll both remember for a long time.

...One of the reasons I carry lots of extra clothing in my pack.

 

[afka_bob]

So that would be "zero"?

I've lent clothes and gear, warmed some folks up, fed a few hot tea and food, but the only person I helped carry out was in the summertime in warm weather.

Still think it's a bit of a "welfare-mom" thing: doesn't happen as often as its complained about.

 

[Holdstrong]

afka_bob

I could be totally wrong about this, but before it was deleted, wasn't it you who in no uncertain terms bashed a poster for starting a thread about the recent ANWAR decision in Congress?

To the original poster of that thread you said something along the lines of "I am sure when Darren said 'No Politics" he meant everyone but you"

I'm just wondering why, in light of that, you feel it is ok to slyly tuck your opinions about the realities of single welfare mothers into a post about hiking advice?

If that wasn't you, I apologize, but the point still holds.

 

[afka_bob]

Holdstrong,

Please forgive me for making an analogy. I nearly resorted to metaphor and even (cringe) simile. I was not taking (I thought) an overt political stance, but again, I throw myself at your hiking boots and beg forgiveness.

Feel free to PM or email me about whatever perceived stance you think I have about any demographic group, though I sense (I know I could be wrong) you have the wrong idea here. I really had no idea I was being sly. I still don't think I was. I had no desire to set anybody off about anything political. Here, let's substitute "Loch Ness Monster" for "welfare mom," but the LNM has to be viewed by some as not just a nutty concept, but a big problem by some and not a big problem by others. Other than not really working as an analogy here, it should work just fine for your, uh, sensibilities.

Perhaps Darren could institute a "no metaphor" rule (or maybe just a "metaphors only for those who can understand them" rule for you).

P.S. send my love to Gris!

 

[catskillclimber]

Rivet,
My sincere apologies. My response to your post was more of a reaction to a situation (a couple actually) that I have had on the trail this past winter. I did not mean it to come across as a personal attack but I see now that it did and I should have realized that before posting it. I basically had a grip that I spewed out before wording it carefully and it was misdirected. Now I see I've started a negative vibe with the post which wasn't my intention. I was basically tying to communicate "to each his own." Peakbagr, I have the utmost respect for those of you who help the rest of us on the trail when it is needed. Thanks all for sharing your feelings.

 

[Rivet]

Rivet,
My sincere apologies. My response to your post was more of a reaction to a situation (a couple actually) that I have had on the trail this past winter.

Thanks. I probably should have left the comment out of my report. I was more concerned about the fact that they had no other gear (backpack, food, water, map, etc..).

Now that I think of it ... I was wearing a long sleeve cotton t-shirt. Doh!

 

[Holdstrong]

Oh come on, of course you were making an overt political statement

Still think it's a bit of a "welfare-mom" thing: doesn't happen as often as its complained about.

The "welfare mom thing" doesnt happen as much as is complained about....

That's what you said.

Hidden behind analogy or metaphor or whatever, that is an overt political statement about your apparent view that "welfare moms" are not as big a problem in society as some make them out to be.

It would be like saying: I think cotton is a lot like oil companies... neither belong in our national refuges. Or cotton deaths in the backwoods are a lot like weapons of mass destruction, they dont exist. Or cotton is a lot like George Bush, they both kill.

Analogies, all of them. And also blatant political statements, like yours.

I just find it is somewhat odd that we would chastise the person who started a thread about the Artic National Wildlife Refuge, but feel it is ok to slap down opinions about welfare moms in this thread. If one of those two topics have anything even remotely to do with hiking, I would have to say it was the former.

Anyway, this is just an observation. Has nothing to do with my sensibilities, as I am neither offended, nor do I agree/disgaree with your political statement.

 

[ADK4Life]

Since when has Mother nature required a dress code? If you feel comfortable in what you wear and feel you will be safe when the elements come knocking then all the power to you.

I find the people clad in so much gear its laughable to fall into the same category as the people you see heading up Washington in Jean shorts and a T-Shirt.

This weekend I bare booted up Cascade, the path was so hard packed I did not post hole once on trail. At the trailhead there were people bringing up expedition sized bags, Snowshoes, Crampons and Ice Axes like they were about to make their first solo ascent of Cerro Torre. At no point was Cascade hard or technical requiring any gear.

On a positive note I love gear and the more I aquire the safer I feel taking treks that would kill someone no prepared. And damn I love my new Dunham Waffle Stompers!

 

[hammerhead]

Can't we just all get along? I don't think it's about the gear your wearing or how big you your pack is, it's how you use your head. Granted a lot of tourons do do a lot of silly things, but there usually the ones sporting the big money don't know how to light a match gear. We are all outdoor enthusiasts some with more knowledge than others, but we should all know are own abilities and what we can and can't do. And if you don't have anything nice to say don't say it. Class dismissed.

 

[BrentD22]

SAR Mission

I was working at PNVC and a call came in for a over do hiker. We geared up and headed out just before dark. My group did not find the man, but the group that did helped him walk out off Mt. Washington after warming him up with fluids and changing his clothing. The man was wearing cotton insulated wind pants and matching top with cotton t-shirt and cross trainers for foot wear. The man was not from this area of the country and admitted he under-estimated the conditions and weather. It could have ended a lot worst than that. It was reported later that a group early in the day told the man that he was not dressed properly (that report was not confirmed personally). It took approx 25 people 6 or so hours to find the man and get him down (if my memory serves me correct the got a ride down some of the way in a snow cat).

Now after saying this I still don't generally agree with people giving out un-solicitated advice, but there are time that it must be done. Done with some tact that is. I am not sure if the man waved off the advice he may have recieved earlier in the day or even received advice. If I saw him I would have questioned at least the fact he had no day pack, water, flash light, warm clothing, and if he "felt alright" meaning mentally. The reason I say that is the year before that resue there was an old man that went into the woods with very little clothing on (sweat pants and shirt or something) with intentions or at least his wife believed to kill himself. I was not on the rescue, but I knew people who where. They did not find him until spring.

The real question to be asked is have you ever given advice to someone about conditions that they might not have the proper gear for and have had them turn back right then? Probably not... Then again if I where not a experianced hiker I would not either at least right away. Maybe if you give advice in a way that doesn't piss off the person getting the advice they'll decide 5 minutes up trail that "maybe that guy/girl had a point" and they'll turn around. Now if you give them advice in a jerky way they'll probably say "f-that guy I'm not turning around, I'll show him/her". Just something to think about.

 

[afka_bob]

old tuna cans

Holdstrong,

Cross my heart, I just wanted to express that maybe this was less of a problem than commonly perceived.

I've apologized at least twice and substituted the Loch Ness Monster for the part that, uh, didn't offend you.

Perhaps you need to wipe the spittle off your monitor and re-read those things. If you do that, and are still, well, not offended but still gotcher boxers in a bunch, I would recommend (unsolicited advice, I know) that you make a very, very tight fist and hold it for a few seconds.

Hold it a little longer...

Just a little longer...

Then just open up that fist and... let it go.

Just a suggestion.

Otherwise, I suggest you find a politcal forum and make snide comments about hiking.

Back to the business of the thread, though:

A few years ago some friends and I were hiking back down from Gray Knob and stopped for a rest in the Log Cabin. There was a discarded tuna can right in the middle of the floor. Nobody said anything (we were kind of tired and not talking much), but one of us would have picked it up before we left and carried it down. We got out of our packs and slumped down just a minute before a couple who looked like they'd answered the Menthos commercial casting call for "fresh young beautiful hikers" strode in, festooned with the latest clothing and gear (Mountain Hardware didn't exist then, but if it did, these two would have had it all).

The guy curled his lip in disgust, pushed the tuna can at us with his toe and said, "Is this yours?"

It wasn't, of course, but at that point (much like in this exchange with Holdstrong) I wished it was.

 

[afka_bob]

[Looking up "continuously" in the dictionary] Pray, elucidate -- holding onto what -- a lost election?

 

[Sherpa John]

I give advice to those I notice are a tad, what would appear, unpreparred only because of the same guidelines stated earlier by peakbagr.

Also due to the fact that someone whom requires SAR in NH must pay for the rescue if they are found "unprepared" for certain cirsumstances, whatever they may be.

Personally... if I saw someone I felt could use a few words of wisdom and I didn't offer it... then I hear down the road that they were killed from whatever it was I thought of commenting on.. I would feel guilty.

 

[forestgnome]

Catskillclimber, I hear you. I always hike solo, and stay well away from people out there because chances are they will say something annoying. I find older folks pleasant to chat with, but younger, cool-looking people I avoid.
I always rest near a summit, but not on it. Once I was resting and a cool party came along and I heard "This is lame. The Rockies have better views from the trailheads. The Perrinies and Alps are so much better." blah, blah, blah.
Yes, I know they're too stupid to enjoy the beauty of these mountains, etc., but I'd rather not hear it in the first place. I'd rather hear a grouse drumming or an underground brook gurgling, or a thrush singing...

 

[Maddy]

Personally... if I saw someone I felt could use a few words of wisdom and I didn't offer it... then I hear down the road that they were killed from whatever it was I thought of commenting on.. I would feel guilty.

Very good point Sherpa Joh and Brent to.
Maybe it's the nurse in my blood but I would feel horrible if something happened to someoene who had not a clue and was forging ahead unprepared into danger.
Last year my friend and I scouted the parking lot at PNVC in the evening for a vehicle with PA plates. (There were very few folks around that day.) We would have reported them missing if we had seen such a vehicle.
There had been and extensive conversation with these youngish folks the night before at supper and sound advice given to them by several experienced hikers. It was even recommended that they speak to the AMC staff before embarking on their adventure. The next day we meet them on the Tuck trail heading UP in jeans, cotton Tshirts, and a very small pack that could not have contained much emergency gear, if any at all. It had started to sleet and it was getting very cold.
They intended to summit!
We were very polite but reinforced what had been discussed the night before.The young man appeared mildly terrified but the young woman was very arrogant insisting that they would be just fine. They passed us and we never saw them again. We went to HOJO's, and no one there had seen them. It would appear that at some point they descended to safety. I could not have lived with myself if one or both died up there and I had not said a word.

I was young, stupid, and arrogant once myself.
Now people ask we I carry "all that stuff". My reply is always the same. "I'm not going to die on the mountain if I have anything to say about it!"


* Sherpa John...that was a great movie! Many thanks!

 

[newjeep123]

Everybody hikes their own hike

 

[afka_bob]

Is it ironic when irony is lost on someone?

 

[afka_bob]

[looking up "hardly" in the dictionary] I'd be lost as -- uh, let's just say I'd be lost without my dictionary!

Very nice avatar, by the way.

 

[dr_wu002]

Ü

How do you get those f'ng dots on the U!?

-Dr. Wu