Another "Donation" to the S&R Fund ? - Mt Madison Rescue

[JacobH]

It's good to hear that Mr. Walsh seems to be recovering.

When Raven asked for input on doing a Presi Traverse, I suggested he avoid the Pine Link trail - "I've found the same is true if you start the traverse via the Pine Link - by the time you struggle to the summit of Madison, Pierce seems a helluva long way off!"

I haven't hiked it in a few years, so I don't know it's current condition, but I'm reasonably certain it would have been a difficult carry-out for SAR staff. Fortunately, that wasn't necessary.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread. Last July I hiked the upper portion (between Watson and the hut) and it was overgrown. Not sure if anything has changed since then or any maintenance has been done (or the condition of the lower parts of the trail), but I could see someone getting lost there. Especially on their 3rd hike in the whites.

Good to hear he is safe!

edit: that trip is actually where my avatar came from, come to think of it

 

[peakbagger]

Pure speculation is that he may be in the area for the big boiler project in Berlin. They are supposed to be staffing up the construction very soon. The project is attracting a lot of folks to the area, unfortunately, unless they have a union card, they wont get hired unless they want to go through an want to start from scratch as an apprentice.

 

[erugs]

Pure speculation is that he may be in the area for the big boiler project in Berlin. They are supposed to be staffing up the construction very soon. The project is attracting a lot of folks to the area, unfortunately, unless they have a union card, they wont get hired unless they want to go through an want to start from scratch as an apprentice.

That would be nice. And since he is willing to admit in public that he had made a mistake that would give him a big plus in my mind if I was one of those people doing the hiring.

 

[Raymond]

In addition to planning his hike better, he should have thought more carefully of the consequences of admitting his sin.

But I think his biggest mistake was not having New Hampshire residency. We’ve all read of countless others who have done the same thing he did and not gotten charged. This is at least the third time recently that someone has been — or is going to be — hit up for the bill, and they’ve all been from Massachusetts. Is it a coincidence?

 

[Raven]

Point is sometimes your just lucky & sometimes you're not

I don't know if it's been edited out of the WMG or not but there used to be a line, my favorite of the book, that read, "the mountain spares most fools."

Even with bad choices, most "luck out." The dedication, skill, and selflessness of the rescuers often plays a big part in this as well.

It is also nice to read the humility in Mr. Walsh's comments. Lesson learned.

 

[hikerbrian]

In fairness, I would be curious to learn the reasoning behind such a disparagement.

F&G is in the habit lately of putting out "We're so smart, and they're so dumb" press releases, especially when it comes to rescues of MA residents. (If your assessment of the original press release is different than mine, that's fine, you are welcome to your own opinion.) If they are going to go this route, they ought to take care to put some smart information in their press releases. Providing the list of items in the way that F&G did is problematic on two levels: first, it leaves out the two most important items that could have saved Walsh from requiring a rescue (see my post above); and second, it implies that someone who walks into the woods with said items in his/her pack is "prepared", a notion that is patently false.

I also disagree with the notion that there is plenty of daylight left at 5:45 PM. Every minute is urgent when it comes to SAR, especially in an environment so unfriendly to someone so ill equipped for it.

For clarification, 5:45 leaves pleanty of time for Walsh to get himself out, provided he walks in the right direction.

Going back to the press release, my expectations for NH F&G are high because they are in a position of authority and influence. In my opinion, this press release missed the mark, both with respect to information that might save others from requiring rescue, and with respect to professionalism.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I'm not convinced there is a bias to calling out MA residents. In reality

Greater Boston, home to 4.5 million people and the tenth-largest metropolitan area in the country.[8] Greater Boston as a
commuting region is home to 7.6 million people, making it the fifth-largest Combined Statistical Area in the United States.

versus

The United States Census Bureau estimates that the population of New Hampshire was 1,318,194 on July 1, 2011

which means there is a potential 6 times likelihood of a visitor being from the Greater Boston area. The ski areas don't raise lift ticket prices during NH's school vacation week - only during MA's vacation week... just sayin'.

Tim

 

[Maddy]

IMHO I don't think we should judge F&G so harshly. I can't say that I have ever interpreted their comments as "we are dumb and they are smart".That is something you would expect in grade school of junior high, maybe high school locker room talk. We all forget things and make mistakes when speaking. There are any number of reasons why he might have forgotten to mention the map and compass. Anyone walking into the woods with "said items" would be somewhat prepared, certainly more prepared than bringing only a cell phone. He would not have read the entire list of "essentials" for the press conference. It's quite long. Mr Walsh either outright stated (according to one news report), or admitted to not having those specific items. It would be difficult if not impossible to cover all your bases when giving a quick summary.
This hiker was severely dehydrated and had only drank slim fast many hrs prior to the call he made for help. He had already progressed to becoming confused. Even if he had a compass he probably would not have been able to figure it out. He admits to stumbling about and becoming incoherent, unable to make good decisions. He was also cold. In those conditions, not long before serious hypothermia would start to set in. and that is not easy to reverse. Long and short of this is, F&G did a great job with this rescue. No doubt about it, they saved this man's life.

They are also not to blame because we have too many MA residents who need their services lately.

 

[Raymond]

But are there six times as many vehicles with Massachusetts license plates as with New Hampshire license plates in the trailhead parking lots?

This guy decided to hike the Kinsman Ridge Trail from Franconia Notch to 112, and he didn’t get started until 1 p.m. His mother called for help, teams searched throughout the night. He didn’t get charged. Doesn’t seem very different from the Madison incident, except that he didn’t have a medical emergency or need to be escorted out. Not very different from the Mount Jackson case, either.

Every year you can depend on people getting benighted on Monadnock or calling for help from some slope because they’re cold or tired. I haven’t read of their being charged.

 

[Trail Bandit]

I have been reading the various inputs to the F&G rescue issue and would like to add my own 1.5 cents worth. I was rescued once in Franconia Notch State park. You can read a short summary on page 172 of the June 15, 1995 issue of Appalachia. I was hiking in a NH State Park when some of the NH State rocks fell on me. NH Fish and Game declined to come to my aid, even though a passing hiker went to get help at the base of Cannon ski area. It was left to the superb people from Mountain Rescue from North Conway to come all the way to Franconia Notch, climb up the hill and haul my bruised body down to an ambulance and then off to the hospital, some 8 hours after my accident.
There were a good number of people that stopped whatever they were doing that day and spent all of it helping me.They never got paid to do what they did for me. I have thanked them before and think they need to get more credit for what they do. It was a beautiful day, but I didn't have a map or compass. I carried no extra food or flashlight so I guess that today I might get fined.
I think we need to remember that NH F&G, the Coast Guard, our rescue squads, fire departments and even the various Department of Safety people are paid for by the public to come to the aid of people in trouble. This business of fining people for being poorly equipped or educated is not how these public servants should be paid. I know, calling 911 because you wandered off the trail on Mt. Monadnock is stupid and people should know a little before they head out. I don't know how to fix it but fines are not the way to go about it.

 

[Maddy]

I wonder if it's because he walked out under his own power and was not rescued.
He was in contact with mom but it appears that the phone lost power or signal, and the worried mom made the decision to report him missing when he did not show up at the appointed time.
He in fact just slept like a log and hiked out by himself in the morning. I would think it would be difficult to charge him because he didn't need rescuing and he never called 911 for help.
It would appear that the hikers being charged asked to be rescued. It wasn't a case of a worried parent of spouse calling because they didn't show on schedule.

 

[Jaytrek57]

I'm not convinced there is a bias to calling out MA residents.

Why? Cuz there's more? Thanks for the stats. I was confused there for a while.

Now give me the stats, and I am sure someone will, of F & G total responses and where the location of the subject is from.

I would wager the percentages work out the same or perhaps higher for NH.

Peace.

Former MA resident in Vactionland.

 

[DougPaul]

I wonder if it's because he walked out under his own power and was not rescued.
He was in contact with mom but it appears that the phone lost power or signal, and the worried mom made the decision to report him missing when he did not show up at the appointed time.
He in fact just slept like a log and hiked out by himself in the morning. I would think it would be difficult to charge him because he didn't need rescuing and he never called 911 for help.
It would appear that the hikers being charged asked to be rescued. It wasn't a case of a worried parent of spouse calling because they didn't show on schedule.

Not in at least one previous case: Recall the case of the boy scout hiking in the N Pressies. (Sprained ankle, detoured down into Great Gulf, self-rescued. Large fine.) His parents called for the search.

Any time the rescuers go out they incur costs. (The volunteers also incur costs which they do not expect to be reimbursed.) The above search was particularly expensive because they had to hire a commercial helicopter.

Doug

 

[peakbagger]

Do note, the state does not charge a "fine" for rescues. The state bills for the actual costs for the rescue. A subtle difference to some but a big difference in many cases. If 100 volunteers show up for a lost person event the only billing is for the actual expenses which most likely would be the paid professionals who coordinate the rescue. The option of a strictly volunteer effort may sound inviting but the reality is that by law someone has to be in charge to coordinate the effort and although there may very well trained volunteers who could lead an effort, they are most likely not available when the call goes out. With regards to the boy scout incident, the expenses happened to include a private helicopter as the normal helicopter that gets charged to training was not available. The state of Vermont is currently in litigation as their S&R policy is decidedly less effective than NH's with the onus for S&R falling on State Police officers with no specific training or equipment to coordinate rescues.

The following is Commentary

I really hope that it this thread continues, that a seperation is maintained between the generally regarded high level of professional abilities of the actual search and rescue personel be seperated from the political neccessity that Fish and Game is required to "beg" for dollars from the state government to adequately fund S&R. I do not believe that most rational people would want the cost of a potential rescue to impact the decisions made to implement the rescue. At least in this area, I dont think many would support the "let em die as its going to be too expensive to do a rescue" rational.

 

[RoySwkr]

The option of a strictly volunteer effort may sound inviting but the reality is that by law someone has to be in charge to coordinate the effort and although there may very well trained volunteers who could lead an effort, they are most likely not available when the call goes out.

My mother & I recently had a visit from a guy we hadn't seen in decades who moved to Wausilla AK after the 2001 high-tech bubble. He says that 90% of SAR in AK is volunteer as the state lacks the resources, he works for BLM but has to take vacation time for SAR (wonder if they give paid time for volunteer firefighters). There is a private air ambulance which doesn't bill until it actually touches down.

I do not believe that most rational people would want the cost of a potential rescue to impact the decisions made to implement the rescue.

People expect a bill from the hospital if they are injured, and even a municipal ambulance is likely to send a bill these days. Why shouldn't your health insurance cover a carry-out for medical reasons? If you hit something with your car, you expect to pay, so why shouldn't you pay for consequences of your actions in the mountains?

[I am ignoring for now costs of rescues ordered by those other than the victim.]

Note than you can insure yourself against medical bills and auto accidents, would bills from F&G be more acceptable if voluntary insurance was available? And perhaps some insurance expert here can comment on whether an umbrella liability policy already covers liability from getting lost.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

<ModeratorHat>
Again, please keep the discussion to the specifics or uniqueness of this particular rescue. The how-to-pay, insurance, F&G funding woes, do-charge, do-not-charge, insurance, etc., belongs in its own thread. Consider New Hampshire Fish and Game Search and Rescue Funding Hearing which is rather exhaustive on the generic issues of funding SAR in NH.
</ModeratorHat>

Tim

 

[billski]

Back Again

So I haven't been here for a while. This topic is near and dear to my heart, given my experiences over the last couple years, on both the receiving and giving end of this.

Here's my lob. When I retire, I'm going to make a deal with WMNF, NHF&G to establish for-profit kiosks at the trailhead(s) with the most "incidents." From my kiosk, I will sell all the safety items, sell them safety insurance, sell them dom Pierre water, rent pack, boots (with credit card deposit of course!) , box lunch, sell them flashlights, souvenir fleece saying "I hiked Lafayette" or whatever. I'll sell them maps, compasses, I'll sell bug spray, head nets, oh, and water. I'll sell lots of bottled water. Or I'll just sell them a bottle.. the list goes on. Oh yeah, I'd post some news reports on the kiosks about rescues and blood and guts and gore. I'll sell them some bear defender, cameras, post cards and stamps.

While being factitious, I am making a serious point, so don't nit-pick. Some (not all) come unprepared either because they are too busy, or don't care to "shop around" for stuff (don't get going about it all being ordinary stuff, I'm making a point here. If we could stem 20% of the dingalings who are unprepared because "I only do this once a year", let's make it easier for them.

The best reading I've ever seen for accidents is the "accidents" section of the AMC Appalachia journal. Those little pieces taught me more than a million "guide books".

I'm going to comment on other things I read here.
1. Lafayette is too damned convenient. There should not be a trailhead right off the highway. Pipedream, I know.

2. I carry as much stuff as an ambulance. Most of it to to help others who have misfortune or come unprepared. Even those I hike with, and I'm not a trip leader. We taped up a twisted ankle last weekend. A sometimes-camper, tenting in an unmarked site, hadn't eaten much in a day. Why? Because his butane fire starter wouldn't work. "Do you have matches? " "Yes, of course I replied." "Really? I asked the last six people who came by and nobody had any. What made matters worse is that all his food required cooking. Guy, keep it simple. Butane lighter when backpacking? 'cmon.

3. Interestingly, if you get lost out of bounds in the Alps, and you do not have not prepaid insurance, they will ask for your credit card or cash during the rescue. If not, they throw you off a cliff. The last part is my desire!

4. The only thing worse than not having the right equipment or being prepared, is not knowing what to do when you are in this situation.

5. CPR, First Aid, they learned at home is really "city first aid", where competent help can arrive in 5 to 10 minutes. They have no clue that it will take hours to evacuate you. And the first responders will have to miss the latest "Jersey Shore" show. Again, disregard the last comment, it was mine!

Fling away!

 

[Stan]

... Butane lighter when backpacking? 'cmon.

I agree with your points but, in addition to 2 or 3 different kinds of matches, I carry a small windproof lighter that was given to me by a biker friend who likes to light up while rolling down the highway ... what a flame! I could probably solder with it ... and it IS easy to use in a wind.

 

[RoySwkr]

would search have been quicker with someone else in charge?

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120812/NEWS07/708129961/0/SEARCH

 

[Mike P.]

An interesting read Roy, thanks

Looks like to much (office) politics in F&G. In those conditions, you might argue that a rescue should have been held off until morning as SAR folks could have been at risk. Due to the nature of area where she was, advance SAR crew were called & I'd agree, his being the 13th person down low somewhere would not have really mattered.

Julie was well prepared, & did pretty well if I remember correctly.

(I guess you could question at what point should she have turned back, IMO, visibility has to be near zero to lose the trail on Jackson unless you were unaware of the what the summit looked like in which case, that should have impacted the decision to turn back sooner.)

Rick W. thought what he did was fine, Todd would have been called.

I suspect there was some other type of message being given. Did he not follow protocol? Probably although the right people were called. Is five days excessive? not really, with 26 years in the system, if NH works at all like CT state employees, he probably had ample time saved that he could have taken five days worh of sick time or vacation time & still had dozens of days in the bank.

As usual, the comments are a great read, silly flatlanders, yet tourism dollars are desired. (What are the comments went flatlanders come up for NASCAR or bike week & end up needing medical care - I suspect not all of them have health insurance, I recall the comments weren't always nice when snowmobiliers from the south got in trouble - not too many riders in the last couple of years.....)