Another rescue of unprepared hikers on Mt Washington

[peakbagger]

One winter about 25 years ago ,the cog had billboards up in the area advertising a Ski Train to the top of Washington to allow folks to ski Tuckerman's ravine and may have actually sold tickets. The forest service came down on them hard. The FS can not ban skiing per se but they can ban a commercial entity from offering services that take place on USFS land.

Skiing on FS land is legal by a commercial entity if permitted like Loon or Wildcat or Attitash but if the FS is opposed to it, they can kill the permit pretty quickly. The subsequent attempt by the Cog allowing skiing within the Cog owned strip of land was legal as long as folks did not go out of bounds onto FS lands. I think the entire effort failed as the snow conditions were poor they year they tried it. Had it succeeded, I expect they would have gotte entangled with the FS if the tacitly allowed access to FS land.

 

[Breeze]

The power lines (15KV if I remember correctly?) are buried parallel to the cog tracks all the way to the top. When they were putting them in, they had excavators and other heavy equipment all up and down the mountain -- I was surprised there wasn't a bigger uproar when it was going on, but I suppose we all consider the cog an eyesore anyway... The swath of land they cleared for the burial forms a rough, but passable, road-sized path. Given the environment, it's not going to grow in during our lifetimes on the upper stretch, even if they make no effort to keep it clear. I don't know if it will be kept brushed out down low.

The contractor who installed both the new waste treatment plant for the Sherman Adams Summit Building and the power line up the Cog RR ROW to the summit would be a familiar face to many long term folks in the Gorham/Randolph area. Local man, large local family, he was active with AMC and SAR in his younger days, part of the SAR who rescued Hugh Herr and recovered Al Dow's body, did a year's rotation in Antarctica @ McMurdo Sound. As partial mitigation for the environmental disturbance of the buried power line, he and his crew collected, loaded and trucked out over 200 dump truck loads of cast off left-in-place wood and metal trash from Cog RR repairs to track, trains, track under-layment and trestles over his 4 seasons ( spring to fall) of work on those projects.

White Mountain Communications.


Breeze

 

[David Metsky]

Please tell us when the USFS forbade skiing within the WMNF? I'm sure many would be interested to know that history.

As peakbagger said, the edict was not on skiing in the WMNF but on using the Cog (and I believe someone tried a heli operation) to access ski terrain in the Whites. The Ski Train was permitted to access land along the Cog that was privately owned. I believe they even had rangers stationed up there to inform skiers that they were not allowed to access other terrain if they rode up on the Cog. Skiers who hike or ski their way up are allowed access anywhere.

 

[Breeze]

One winter about 25 years ago ,the cog had billboards up in the area advertising a Ski Train to the top of Washington to allow folks to ski Tuckerman's ravine and may have actually sold tickets. The forest service came down on them hard. The FS can not ban skiing per se but they can ban a commercial entity from offering services that take place on USFS land.

Skiing on FS land is legal by a commercial entity if permitted like Loon or Wildcat or Attitash but if the FS is opposed to it, they can kill the permit pretty quickly. The subsequent attempt by the Cog allowing skiing within the Cog owned strip of land was legal as long as folks did not go out of bounds onto FS lands. I think the entire effort failed as the snow conditions were poor they year they tried it. Had it succeeded, I expect they would have gotte entangled with the FS if the tacitly allowed access to FS land.

What that beef WAS all about is that someone AS a commercial entity was selling access to WMNF land for singular profit outside of any USFS fee-for -use-contract, much like Al Reisch and his heli tours into Tucks attracted regulatory attention and Al got stopped in his tracks. Al Reisch will always be remembered in the MWV as the driver of Friends of Tucks, regardless of his overstepping a few boundaries now and then.

I'm not disagreeing with you, Peakbagger. The key is " by commercial entity". USFS does not and never has said you can't ski in the WMNF, but if you want to sell access for dollars, any commercial entity has to pony up bucks for the right to collect money.

Breeze

 

[IQuest]

At least they got a peak off their list and now, they don't have to go back.

The rescue team used a vehicle to give the hikers a ride to the bottom, Saunders said.

Not if you are playing by "the rules".

At least everyone is ok.

 

[Cristobal]

Doug/Sierra, I'm curious what is your plan/gear for an unplanned below 0F night in the woods ?

I once spent an unplanned night in the woods at near zero (but probably not below 0 F), and my small 'emergency bag' served me pretty well. I had a Gore-tex bivy sack (the Army surplus model), extra socks, light rain pants and jacket, a balaclava and mittens, and an extra piece of insulation or two, probably a wool or fleece shirt. I was also well dressed for winter hiking, but not wearing any special, arctic-type clothes.
I curled up in the natural shelter around the base of a pine tree (the snow was several feet deep), and spent a miserable, sleepless, but ultimately safe night out. In the morning light I found my way again and lived happily ever after.
My point is, if you can stay dry and keep out of the wind, have a little extra insulation and an emergency shelter, you'll likely survive the night.
One thing I added to my emergency bag after that mishap - a pair of down booties. Throughout that night I worried that I might fall asleep and get frostbite on my toes. Now that would be a serious survival challenge.

 

[sardog1]

I had a Gore-tex bivy sack (the Army surplus model)

I've spent several (civilian) nights in one. It's one of the best bivy sacks available, superior to many from a well-known maker that I once sold. I figure it adds a good ten degrees of warmth to whatever I'm using inside it for insulation. No, it's not light, but that seems to matter far less after you crawl in when it's forty degrees and raining.

 

[David Metsky]

I think the ski trains ran for at least 3 or 4 years before the Cog abandoned the idea. They started converting their coal-fired engines to biodiesel about the same time.

I believe it was just one year of commercial operation. They may have had a trial run the year before but actual paid skiers were only carried one inglorious season.

 

[Quietman]

The NELSAP site has it running 2 years, 2005-2006.

 

[David Metsky]

The NELSAP site has it running 2 years, 2005-2006.

I didn't think it ran in 2005, maybe it only started at the end of the season. Either way I stand corrected.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Per Wikipedia - From 2003 to 2006, "ski trains" ran, stopping at an intermediate station, from which passengers could ski down to the Base Station.

This mirrors my own personal experience. Whether 2003 contained paying customers - dunno - that's splitting hairs. To me, a cog train going uphill in the winter is a ski train, whether it was "in testing" or not.

 

[DougPaul]

One thing I added to my emergency bag after that mishap - a pair of down booties. Throughout that night I worried that I might fall asleep and get frostbite on my toes. Now that would be a serious survival challenge.

Actually, frostbite is an anesthetic (painless) injury and your feet are relatively resistant to further injury as long as they stay frozen. The process of thawing is very painful and after thawing, the flesh becomes very delicate. Refreezing makes the injury much worse.

If your feet become frozen, walk out on them and thaw after you get to a place where you can stay off them and can guarantee that they will not refreeze. Medical help should be obtained if the frostbite is at all severe--thawed frostbite can develop large infection prone blisters and can require months to heal.

(How to deal with frostbite would fill a small book. The above is a very short and incomplete summary.)

Booties are good. One can also improvise booties from dry socks and stuff sacks. (Better make them rough surface nylon rather than silnylon if you hope to be able to walk in them...)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Doug/Sierra, I'm curious what is your plan/gear for an unplanned below 0F night in the woods ?

This is one of those questions whose answer is too big to try to answer on an online forum... (And what is sufficient gear for one person may not be enough for someone else.)

Basically, know how to winter camp and carry bivy gear. Definitely carry a foam pad (I'd argue that you want a full length pad in case you are injured and need to lie down)--if no pad, sit or lie on your pack. The goal is to survive, but not necessarily to be comfortable. If solo and injured, you may not be able to move so if it isn't within arm's reach, it might as well not be there (eg no wood fires).

These prior threads have some useful info: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?32541-emergency-bivy http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?41296-Emergency-Bivy-Sacks http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?20428-Emergency-Bivy .


For comparison with anything that we might have to endure: In 1975 Dougal Haston and Doug Scott endured an unplanned bivouac in a snow cave* on the South Summit of Everest while descending from the main summit. Haston had a down suit and Scott just had the clothing that he had been wearing. They spent the night massaging fingers and toes to provide some circulation and Scott dug away at the cave to generate heat. Both survived without injury. These were two uninjured elite mountaineers, but it should give you an idea of what is possible.

* at 28,700ft, temp ~-30C, thin air (the oxygen had run out), no food, the stove soon ran out of fuel


(And if anyone is curious, I found the first prior thread by searching my archived posts for the word "bivy" and then searched the forum titles for "emergency" and "bivy" got the other two. BTW, searching titles for just the word "bivy" brings up ~20 threads including the above and some more that look relevant. And if you search titles and texts for the phrase "emergency bivy" (with quotes) you get ~60 threads a number of which look relevant. And I'm sure that if you fired up Google to search the internet you would find a lot more. Search and ye shall find.

The Haston and Scott story is from memory augmented by Bonington's book, "Everest the Hard Way" to get the details correct.)

Doug

 

[TCD]

Here's another story of a true hard man, perhaps my favorite: Douglas Mawson. None of us have endured, or ever will endure such an effort for survival:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/01/125-mawson-trek/roberts-text

 

[Raven]

This is one of those questions whose answer is too big to try to answer on an online forum... (And what is sufficient gear for one person may not be enough for someone else.)

Basically, know how to winter camp and carry bivy gear. Definitely carry a foam pad (I'd argue that you want a full length pad in case you are injured and need to lie down)--if no pad, sit or lie on your pack. The goal is to survive, but not necessarily to be comfortable. If solo and injured, you may not be able to move so if it isn't within arm's reach, it might as well not be there (eg no wood fires).


(Doug

Succintly said.

For comparison with anything that we might have to endure: In 1975 Dougal Haston and Doug Scott endured an unplanned bivouac in a snow cave* on the South Summit of Everest while descending from the main summit. Haston had a down suit and Scott just had the clothing that he had been wearing. They spent the night massaging fingers and toes to provide some circulation and Scott dug away at the cave to generate heat. Both survived without injury. These were two uninjured elite mountaineers, but it should give you an idea of what is possible.

* at 28,700ft, temp ~-30C, thin air (the oxygen had run out), no food, the stove soon ran out of fuel


(Doug

Perhaps the most important gear: an unbreakable will to survive.


...a warm layer and a waterproof layer for most of the body go a long way too.



Edit: This was a pretty good thread that has a lot of quality and detail. It's a lot of winter gear lists from quite a few people.

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?46627-Winter-hiking-what-do-you-carry-in-your-pack&highlight=winter+pack

 

[Cristobal]

DougPaul, I appreciate the knowledge about frostbite, but you're not easing my fear of it at all!

 

[JCarter]

DougPaul, I appreciate the knowledge about frostbite, but you're not easing my fear of it at all!

Well, I would mention that fear is good. It make sure that you do everything you can to avoid it.

 

[sierra]

Doug/Sierra, I'm curious what is your plan/gear for an unplanned below 0F night in the woods ?

My gear selection is smaller then what some carry. Heres what I dont carry, sleeping bag, Bivi sack or stove. I carry mulitple layers then work well with each other. Full shell upper and lower. Expedition mitts and most important, layers that stay un-used and dry in case I need them. My boots are bomber for cold temps, and this is a critical point. Alot of newer hikers where light wieght boots that they claim are just fine. I prefer gore-tex lined high mountaineering boots that will not fail in any situation. Xtra food, HLamp, lighter/matches. I also have a solid background for emergency shelter finding or building.

One poster said " The will to survive" that is key. I would never give up and it would take alot to do me in. I once climbed for 12+ hours with a broken ankle. The first 3 hours where over 14,000ft. At know time was I discouraged or worried, I simply knew it was a long climb ahead of me. People who survive harrowing experiences all posses the abilty to go well beyond expected limitations. IMO some people have it, some dont.

 

[DougPaul]

DougPaul, I appreciate the knowledge about frostbite, but you're not easing my fear of it at all!

Frostbite is certainly something to be respected.

Read up on it or take a winter hiking course--it is avoidable in all but the most serious situations. Severe frostbite can result in the loss of body parts (most commonly fingers, toes, tip of the nose, and parts of the external ear), disfigurement, and/or gangrene.

Such issues are one of the reasons that I advocate starting winter hiking by taking a course--any decent one should teach the student about the pitfalls rather than having the (non)student find out about them the hard way.

My introduction was in a winter school course using "Frostbite" by Bradford Washington, http://www.amazon.com/Frostbite-Bradford-Washburn/dp/B005APOB0U. A more recent book is "Hypothermia, Frostbite and Other Cold Injuries" by Gordon G. Giesbrecht and James A Wilkerson,
http://www.amazon.com/Hypothermia-F...1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1386963932&sr=1-1-fkmr0. I suggest that you read at least the second book or its equivalent.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

My boots are bomber for cold temps, and this is a critical point. Alot of newer hikers where light wieght boots that they claim are just fine. I prefer gore-tex lined high mountaineering boots that will not fail in any situation.

Good boots are very important. IMO, if you cannot stand around in them for an hour or two, they are not warm enough. (The 3-season boots that some wear do not meet this test...) Anyone who uses boots that are marginal should carry booties as emergency gear. And needing to use chemical warmers to keep one's feet warm scares me. (See my post on frostbite...)

I wear winter double mountaineering boots and have stood in them for extended periods on windy belay ledges without difficulty. I can also wear them until I hit the sack while camping without difficulty.

Doug