Posting 'secret' spots online

[Pete_Hickey]

In the long run, it won't make a difference. Someone, somewhere, someday will post detailed logs getting to a special place. It only takes one to do it. Google gets it and saves it, and that secret is gone.

Give it time. It's happening now. There are databases on the net of waypoints to special places. (Not in the NE, as far as I know) It just takes one person to set it up, and others will fill it in.

By keeping things to yourself, all you can do is keep it secret a bit longer.

 

[1ADAM12]

I agree its a problem We definately dont want people stomping the Basin Amp. So who's up for an expidition there? I am thinking sometime in August

 

[dvbl]

Two interesting things I've read which pertain to this topic:

1) Lost in My Own Backyard by Tim Cahill. In one of the chapters he talks about two men who wrote a book revealing the location of about 200 "secret" waterfalls in Yellowstone National Park. The park rangers and locals were not very happy about this book; their point being that it denied the joy of discovery to countless future off-trail hikers/backpackers.

2) An essay written by someone who posts here. I'll leave it up to him/her to decide if he/she wants it more public. It was a very good piece on the dilemma of revealing "secret" backcountry spots.

I'll admit this is a tough one for me. I want to share the joy of a "secret" beautiful view, but I cringe at the thought of a blazed trail to it. I'm on the fence.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

'll admit this is a tough one for me. I want to share the joy of a "secret" beautiful view, but I cringe at the thought of a blazed trail to it.

NOte that putting something on the net is not sharing. It is PUBLISHING. There is a big difference between the two. Most people think of the net as a bunch of friends. It is much more. Information can be private, public, and meta-public. The net falls into the latter catagory. Don't think of 'today'. On the net, 'today' is like singel page in a book. The net contains the whole book, which is still being written. Look at how much information has been archived over the past 20 years on the net. Extrapolate to get an idea of what it will be like in 10 years from now...and remember, it is non-linear (another concept people have a tough time with)

 

[Rik]

This is a big issue with fishing forums. The accepted solution on those sites I check out is you don't give specifics on the boards, but instead requests are honored through PMs if the one in the know deems it fit. I bet the same concept would also work well with hiking. Just my 2 cents.

I think this works well and is what I do.

 

[dug]

I don't post any info regarding backcountry campsites that I have found or used. The absolute worst thing is to get to a site in the pouring rain after midnight and see someone in "YOUR" spot.

My personal opinion is if it ain't marked, it shouldn't be publicized.

 

[Jason Berard]

Thanks for bringing this up. I know I've posted a few times about abandoned trail hikes I've done, and got pretty specific about the details. I'm not sure if that sort of thing falls into what you have concerns about or not, but I'd be curious to know. I never gave it much thought at the time, although I definitely see your point now.

I guess my question is this: Just because the information is out there, do we know if that actually leads to a substantial increase in traffic to a given special place?

I'm just not sure there are that many people that want to go "off trail".

The supply of information is there for these special place hikes that are not on maintained trails, but is there really demand for it?

I suppose the flip side of that is, if you use someone else's route, you're missing out on the experience of stumbling upon your own special place.

Thanks again for bringing this up. I look forward to following this thread.

 

[David Metsky]

Should VFTT adopt a policy that prohibits the posting of information about “secret” spots?

My answer to that would be “no, no, a thousand times no.”

I'm in complete agreement with this. The discussion is great, and I think people should consider the consequences of their actions, but I don't think any new policy or rule is needed.

The only exceptions would be if something was on private land and the owners had asked people to stay out, or if it was something like the location of the last set of Dwarf Cinquefoil on Washington.

People do need to understand that they are publishing information to 100's and potentially 1000's of random strangers on the net. Once published, that information will never be lost. It's harder to discover anything new, and I strongly encourage people to share sensitive or specific information via PMs or even better, in person. But this info is going to get out and "special" places are losing their "special-ness" at a rapid pace.

Such is life, but there's no reason to make it worse then it needs to be.

-dave-

 

[hikerfast]

Interesting thread and fair questions. In my twenty plus years of hiking, from what I've observed, I doubt if very many 'casual' hikers are going to bushwhack ANYWHERE..lol. very few and far between. It's kind of like years ago, listening to people not wanting to publish the list of 3000 footers. Can you IMAGINE the crowds of hundreds of people that would be sitting on top of 'the captain' 10 miles out in the woods on a nice fall day if they did? grins

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I second Grumpy's thoughts, and like Albee, my instincts are to be inclusive, not exclusive.

Here are some stray observations:

- Secret is relative, at least in the Northeast woods, as many forests have been logged over several times since the European settlers arrived. So, rather than using the word 'secret', it probably more accurate to use 'forgotten' or 'lost', etc.

- With tools like Google Earth, it will become increasingly easier to find 'lost waterfalls' and other out-of-the-way places, and this type of technology is likely to increase.

- Publishing hikes in Backpacker or club magazines like "AMC Outdoors" does create more traffic to those locations, but I doubt it increases hiking activity overall. Rather, it just moves it around.

As for posting/publishing 'bushwhack' routes - a strong case can be made that it's better to have 100 people following the same route than those same 100 people creating 100 different routes in terms of the impact to the forest. The larger problem is whether a well-used bushwhack route is the best route (best in terms of minimizing impact) to use. Personally, I don't think posting a bushwhack route increases traffic up a particular hill - people who are going to climb it will do so regardless.

 

[dvbl]

NOte that putting something on the net is not sharing. It is PUBLISHING. There is a big difference between the two. Most people think of the net as a bunch of friends. It is much more. Information can be private, public, and meta-public. The net falls into the latter catagory. Don't think of 'today'. On the net, 'today' is like singel page in a book. The net contains the whole book, which is still being written. Look at how much information has been archived over the past 20 years on the net. Extrapolate to get an idea of what it will be like in 10 years from now...and remember, it is non-linear (another concept people have a tough time with)

Definition of publish: to make publicly known; announce; divulge; promulgate.
Definition of share: to receive, use, experience, enjoy in common with another or others.

I'm well aware of the definitions of the words I use. If I don't know what a word means, I don't use it. I used the word "share" for a reason, and I'll stick with it. Thanks anyway.

I'm also well aware that in this computer era, anything "shared" or "published" (you pick the word) on the web is from that point onward public...forever. I'm sure everyone reading this knows that.

 

[Bob]

posting about FREE CAMPING

what really frosted my butt was when someone from another board posted about free camping along one of the forest roads last year. Most of us know about these spots, but posting an event like this can lead to high impact and overuse of these fragile areas.

 

[RoySwkr]

what really frosted my butt was when someone from another board posted about free camping along one of the forest roads last year. Most of us know about these spots, but posting an event like this can lead to high impact and overuse of these fragile areas.

Sorry you don't approve, but that's just the kind of info I appreciate about an unfamiliar area. My experience is that the FS posts far too many roads for no camping, which may lead to overuse of remaining ones, but I don't feel like hogging them for yourself is the correct solution.

A couple years ago a friend who stayed with me at a particular campsite at a FS campground said it was so lovely we should never tell anybody about it. My feeling would be that we were there once and probably would never be again, why not tip off others even though inevitably it will come to the notice of somebody who might trash it. Far better to have people using these places than have the FS close them down because nobody uses them.

I'm not quite sure what is the big deal on bushwhack track logs, why are they different from telling somebody to go up the brook or up the ridge? And I'm not sure that lists, info, etc. doesn't lead to more hiking, if somebody didn't have a 3000-footer list would they really climb Lafayette that many more times or maybe they would play tennis instead? Like A I feel that some bushwhack spots can tolerate lots more use and like DM I believe that some should remain secret. It's hard for a policy or a moderator to make that call, the users need to do it.

 

[skiguy]

IMO I don't have any clear cut answers here. What I do feel is that I really enjoy the "Quest and Adventure" of finding these special places. Part of that Quest is the research that goes into learning about these places before you actually go out. It use to be that you could only read books, talk to people, and just go out there and do it. Technology has given us some new tools as of recent (GPS,the Internet and Cell Phones). I think we all have our Opinions about these tools but to me they all need to be used responsibly. I think that this Website goes a long way towards filling those responsibilities. Hopefully we are all setting and continue to set a good example for others. That being said I think VFTT is doing just fine with this issue the way it is now. In the big picture IMO I feel that the people who are going to go to these special places are going to anyhow weather we publicize about them or not because most of them are a lot of work to get to that the average Tramper would not bother.

 

[Peakbagr]

I think this is a terrific discussion, with both points of view being represented.
If it does nothing else, it will sensitize some people to the consequences of posting very specific information that will forever be available to anyone and what its outcome is.

 

[giggy]

I think most people are day trail hikers that like a nice easy path to the top . this is why the pop trails get used alot, tuck ravine, old brid path, wilderness, etc...

if someone posts info about some nubble that is a bushwhack on the the highest pimple on a mooses ass in the NW vermont 10000 list - I highly doubt many will flock to it and lead to overuse.

I also think that most people would rather stay indoors at night or at camgrounds with a poop stall and shower - so that filters out many of the forest service sites.

doubt posting secret info will do much either way to be honest.

the hardcore bushwhackers find this stuff out through the channels and most people like myself avoid bushwhacks the the black death (they ruin my nice legs )

I say post it - i ain't going to the mooses ass in NW vermont anyway!

I do like to frost BoB's butt though - yikes!

 

[TCD]

I posted earlier, but now I have some more thoughts.

On rules at VFTT: I agree that we shouldn't move towards any more rules. I'm on another forum, NEIce, which has much more of a "wild west" culture. Flames are exchanged freely, including occasional physical threats. It's fun, too! But I know folks there think that VFTT is already sterile and rule-bound. I think VFTT is fine, but I wouldn't want to move to any more rules.

On trip reports for ill-advised trips: I think that's a bit of a different subject from the one in this thread. The example of hikes during mud season, or the more extreme example from last year of the tree blazing to Couchie, are about specific damage to the woods, not about normal use of "secret" places.

On elitism: Several posts on this thread have the familiar structure of: "this is a fragile area, so it's OK for me to go there, but if the other guy goes there it that might cause damage," and "even though the wilderness is owned by everyone, the spot I just discovered is MY SPOT, and I'll be unhappy if I get there and the other guy got there first." Look carefully at motivations.

TCD

 

[cushetunk]

I think most people are day trail hikers that like a nice easy path to the top . this is why the pop trails get used alot, tuck ravine, old brid path, wilderness, etc...

Sorry to pick on you giggy but you've got a nice quote that sums up what other people have also expressed.

In this discussion the concern is not so much about these hypothetical "other people" who like hiking popular trails again and again. It's about us. You. And me. And all the other hundreds of hikers who are bushwhackers and explorers and who do read Views From the Top and who will indeed go seek out these spots.

So really, you don't need to worry about whether someone is going to find your secret spot searching with Google. You need to worry about me who now has your secret spot on top of the "New Posts" page.

It's always helpful to put a human face on problems, so I volunteer mine (virtually)....

 

[Peakbagr]

"But I know folks think that VFTT is already sterile and rule-bound. I think VFTT is fine, but I wouldn't want to move to any more rules."
Sorry, if it bothers some, but VFTT is tightly moderated for some very good reasons. Ask Darren about the 'problem children' who came within a whisker of permanently closing VFTT. I'd suggest anyone who has that issue to PM Darren on this. I am not advocating a rule against posting tracklogs or specific directions to 'secret places', but in all candor, I will do what I can to discourage it.

"On elitism: Several posts on this thread have the familiar structure of: "this is a fragile area, so it's OK for me to go there, but if the other guy goes there it that might cause damage," and "even though the wilderness is owned by everyone, the spot I just discovered is MY SPOT, and I'll be unhappy if I get there and the other guy got there first." Look carefully at motivations."
There is a big difference in someone wanting to learn about one of these places and a person finding them and not wanting them spoiled.

 

[drewski]

Nw Vermont 10000 List???