The differences of the Whites verses ADKS

[DougPaul]

Pony up people. OldSmores put some hard data on the table. Support it or refute it. No vague statements.

Putting up some data is not the same as putting up good data.

Both Kevin and I pointed out the problem of local variation. OldSmores' data supports the conclusion that Pinkham Notch receives more snow than Lake Placid, not that the Whites receive more snow than the DAKs.

Presumably one needs data for the average snowfall over the two regions (assuming that people can agree on the exact definition of the two regions) to make a more meaningful comparison. I am not aware of any source for such data.

Doug

 

[prino]

I agree Doug! Snowfall data is perhaps one of the hardest things to measure. You would need stations every 2 or 3 miles in every direction to come even close. If you include western NY ie. Tughill, Watertown region the snowfall amounts would be off the scale due to lake effect.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Putting up some data is not the same as putting up good data.

Both Kevin and I pointed out the problem of local variation.

Speculation and anecdotal evidence isn't the same thing as some data either. Kevin asked for something more quantitative. I merely pointed out there was at least something posted. Nobody else has posted anything better.

It's fine to continue the good-natured ribbing but if we want to get serious, then let's find something factual.

Tim

 

[Peakbagr]

Lets keep it cordial, if for no other reason than to keep me from admitting that I was wrong.

Originator of the thread asked some basic differences in the two areas and it would be nice to keep the discussion in that context, pls.

Thanks,
Alan

 

[injektilo]

Speculation and anecdotal evidence isn't the same thing as some data either. Kevin asked for something more quantitative. I merely pointed out there was at least something posted. Nobody else has posted anything better.

It's fine to continue the good-natured ribbing but if we want to get serious, then let's find something factual.

Tim

Are you implying that localized variation in snowfall due to topography is speculative?

If it's data you want, go to NOAA's interactive snow model.

http://www.nohrsc.nws.gov/interactive/html/map.html

Zoom in on the northeast. Next to the STATIONS overlay, select label. This will give you all the snow station IDs. Pick a snow station that interests you and copy/past the ID into the quick query in the upper right in the GET CLIMATOLOGY FOR STATION ID. Hit GO. You can then select a date range and either plot or view snowfall data for that station. Repeat for additional stations until you've seen enough data. Have at it.

 

[Oldsmores]

Boy howdy, didn't think adding a little data to the discussion would cause such angst. I'll acknowledge that there are significant local variations in snowfall. And yes, I've hiked in both in the winter, but I would never pretend that my limited sample would be conclusive regarding which area gets the most snowfall.
How's this? I'll challenge anyone to find long term data from any location in the Adirondacks that shows higher mean or median snowfall than any location in the Whites. I spent a little time this morning and couldn't.
BTW, the same data set for Mt. Washington: Mean - 311", Median - 293.9" !!!!!!

 

[Kevin Rooney]

... Kevin asked for something more quantitative. I merely pointed out there was at least something posted.

Tim - I'm not looking for data per se, and has been pointed out, there are not nearly enough remote weather stations in the NE to provide a clear picture. Rather, I'm hoping they'll be others with extensive experience in both locations who'll share their perceptions. It's our perceptions, that the I believe the original poster was interested in. At least that how I respond to questions of "harder" and "easier".

If we were to look at a topo map, and attempt to do some kind of quantitative analysis, like comparing the rate of elevation gain over distance, we could make data tables for both regions. But, as we all know, there are many subjective factors which enter in also, so in the end we'll still be left with our perceptions as to each regions relative difficulty in comparison to each other.

Gotta go hiking ...

 

[Roxi]

Here's another example of wide variation in snowfall - I've seen instances when in mid-winter there's so little snow in Franconia village you could see the brown lawns. But, drive 5-10 miles into the Notch and there's so much snow they're using bucket loaders to move it. Huge difference.

Excellent point, Kevin. The notch seems to have its own weather system or micro climate. I've driven through it many times when south of the Notch was sunny and clear, in the Notch was some form of precipitation, and exiting north of the Notch again revealed clear skies. Distinct temperature differences occur as well below, within, and above the Notch. The degree of change has always amazed me and how quickly it occurs. Light snowfall outside of the Notch can be whiteout conditions within. Been there, done that.

 

[ALGonquin Bob]

Snow data? Who cares? It snows in both places... Hello? MOUNTAINS! Does this thread really need to decline into a snow-pissing match? Both the Adks and the Whites have their similarities. Let's keep this civil.

 

[Grumpy]

...

Originator of the thread asked some basic differences in the two areas and it would be nice to keep the discussion in that context, pls.

The big difference to me is that I've hiked fairly extensively in the Adirondacks, and virtually not at all in the Whites. One difference I sense -- from studying maps and guidebooks -- is that the Whites seem to have a more elaborate trail system that provides multiple approaches to peaks and greater opportunities for loop hikes. Is that an accurate perception?

G.

 

[NewHampshire]

Snow data? Who cares? It snows in both places... Hello? MOUNTAINS! Does this thread really need to decline into a snow-pissing match? Both the Adks and the Whites have their similarities. Let's keep this civil.

Its all good....as long as you don't eat the yellow snow! (which now makes you wonder, if both places had to spell their names in the snow with pee which would run out first....I mean White Mountains has more letters in it, right!? )

Brian

 

[Stan]

One difference that stands out to me is that the trails in the Whites seem to be better laid out and maintained than the DAKS. Granted, that impression is drawn largely on the basis of hiking only a dozen peaks in the DAKS compared to most of the Whites.

I suspect the difference results from the early influence of construction and maintenance standards of the AT, which passes through the Whites but not the DACKS. The most conspicuous evidence of these differences are the more extensive use of waterbars in the Whites with some DACK's trails quite a bit wetter and not unlike stream beds when dry.

Grumpy inquires about loops, one of my favorite factors in laying out a route. There are indeed many opportunities in The Whites but quite a few also in the DACKS, except the DACKS propose much longer loops consistent with the longer hiking distances in the DACKS in general.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

All I did was point out one concrete example of chart data to answer Kevin's query of whether or not it was chart data or not. Nobody has "disputed" the "more mud" or "longer approaches" or "more above treeline". The only claim both "sides" have made was more snow...

I did not say, nor did Old Smores, that it was proof positive of the Whites getting more snow than the ADKs. Merely, I suggested that rather than engaging in speculation (and no, I was not saying local variation was speculative, but nothing quantitative has been said about it either) if we REALLY wanted to know which had more snow, then there are probably concrete sources of info, and we already had one such source and to expand on that.

I did not mean to get everyone all up in arms. I was hoping to resolve the one point that was disputed. Personally, I am not interested in Joe or Jane Random Hiker's perception of which is harder because I cannot readily compare myself to Joe or Jane, and over time conditions could vary leading to a different outcome (not repeatable.) That doesn't make it wrong for anyone else to be interested, just different. Rather I was interested in actual data, which injektilo has pointed out a way to obtain (Thanks.)

Sorry for being a corporate conscience / devil's advocate... it's in my genes

Tim

 

[dug]

And the approximate air speed of an unladen swallow is?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

And the approximate air speed of an unladen swallow is?

African or European?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2R3FvS4xr4

Tim
p.s. the answer is 40MPH (50-65 kph) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swallow)

 

[ALGonquin Bob]

Its all good....as long as you don't eat the yellow snow! (which now makes you wonder, if both places had to spell their names in the snow with pee which would run out first....I mean White Mountains has more letters in it, right!? ) Brian

I just write "Adks", but without the quote marks - I just can't manage that. I did write my wife's name in the snow once, but she got mad because she said it wasn't my handwriting...

I am looking forward to getting in a winter trip to the Whites in 2010 - I hope there is some snow there...

 

[BlackBuffalo]

I keep telling myself, "Self, take a week that I'd ordinarilly hike the Whites and not, but instead go to the Dacks." The familiarity of the Whites and the 34 more peaks I'd like to eventually get to keep me comin back.

Last year I did decide to locate and hike Snowy Mtn near Indian Lake on a day off in the fall. It was incredible. I can only imagine what a week in the high peaks region may be like.

Are there many motels, etc.? Places to grab a quick breakfast?

 

[kmac]

Keene Valley has a hostile right in town across from a mom and pop diner. There is also the Ausable Inn that is walking distance from the hostile, that offers some good eats, little more pricey but with a cozy dining area with fireplace.
The hostile in Keene Valley is $27 a night, cozy with self serve kitchen with the use of the washer/dryer. There's also Jack Rabbit hostile that is farther north closer to Lake Placid and I think we paid $25 a night.
Hope that helps.
kmac

 

[Grumpy]

Keene Valley has a hostile right in town across from a mom and pop diner. There is also the Ausable Inn that is walking distance from the hostile, that offers some good eats, little more pricey but with a cozy dining area with fireplace.
The hostile in Keene Valley is $27 a night, cozy with self serve kitchen with the use of the washer/dryer. There's also Jack Rabbit hostile that is farther north closer to Lake Placid and I think we paid $25 a night.
Hope that helps.

Not wishing to be snide or obnoxious, but I'd much prefer to put up overnight in a hostel than in a hostile. All in good fun ...

G.

 

[kmac]

Not wishing to be snide or obnoxious, but I'd much prefer to put up overnight in a hostel than in a hostile. All in good fun ...

G.

me too thanks for the correction.