The differences of the Whites verses ADKS

[Mattl]

I was referring to the aquatic life being absent, which is sad. The Dacks do get lake effect, but not nearly as much of west of them, and being so much further west, can get missed by many Noreasters that come up the coast. I look at snow depths from NOAA all the time during winter, and they seem to have less snow. -Mattl

 

[cooperhill]

I've only done about 15 of the 48 (plus Baldface) but I have always felt the presence of civilization more in the Whites. (the cog, Wash, more ski resorts and highways closer at hand and visible, the huts, etc. Not that there isn't some of that in the ADK's, (the Whiteface ski area is visible from a lot of peaks) it just seemed more present in the peaks I hiked in the Whites.

I would think a big reason for this difference is the history (in the whites - tourism, proximity to Boston, AMC, logging - destruction of old growth areas, old railroad beds are now roads, etc., ) of the two areas as well as the agencies that manage them.

I've yet to go to the ADKs so I'm enjoying this thread.

 

[ALGonquin Bob]

Lucky for us all, a couple road projects proposed decades ago were defeated - a road up Mount Marcy and a road through Indian Pass. I can't imagine hiking up there with roads through the heart of the High Peaks area. Hopefully, I-87 will be the last major highway ever built in the Adirondacks. I enjoy the remoteness and small town feel of the region.

 

[SteveHiker]

Oy! If you are calling the Whites trails "well graded" I am now SCARED of the Daks!!!!!

I am actually looking forward to heading into the ADK region some day (and heading back to the Catskills too for that matter.)

Brian

no kidding. I want to know where all these well-graded, non-muddy trails are that everyone keeps talking about!

 

[una_dogger]

no kidding. I want to know where all these well-graded, non-muddy trails are that everyone keeps talking about!

Here's what I meant about well graded:

The Whites, INHO, are very well graded, well built wide trails with switchbacks, etc -- in most cases you are taken around cliffs instead of right up them. Pretty much just walk right up the trail to the summit. Eg, Signal Ridge Trail, Bondcliff, Skookumchuck, Falling Waters, Ammo, Valley Way, and so forth

In the High Peaks, with the exception of Marcy and Algonquin, the trails tend to shoot straight up to the summits, with very little in the way of switchbacks, and tend to take you right up cliffs. In the Daks, and the Catskills as well, "hand over foot" climbing pretty much exists for some point to reach each summit, sometimes climbing over several sets of ledges, steep rocky headwalls and exposed areas. Eg: The Range Trail over Saddleback, Basin, Gothics, Armstrong etc, The Seymour Slide Trail, Macoomb Slide Trail, Beckhorn Trail, Cliff Herdpath, Blueberry Trail to Seward, Sawteeth Scenic Route, Blake and Colvin approaches, Gray Herdpath, Herdpath up Hough, final scramble to Big Slide summit, etc... So to add to the growing list of differences, I'll add that there are many more exposed areas in the Daks. Gotta love that "fall to your death feeling"!

Much to be said about the hazards of above treeline travel in the Whites being an experience all its own. The Daks for me mainly differ in terrain, lots of tough scrambling, lots of deep green woods, super steep climbs and descents, and amazing viewpoints. My kinda trails. If you like jungle gyms, you'll love the Daks.

 

[dr_wu002]

Here's what I meant about well graded:

The Whites, INHO, are very well graded, well built wide trails with switchbacks, etc -- in most cases you are taken around cliffs instead of right up them. Pretty much just walk right up the trail to the summit. Eg, Signal Ridge Trail, Bondcliff, Skookumchuck, Falling Waters, Ammo, Valley Way, and so forth

In the High Peaks, with the exception of Marcy and Algonquin, the trails tend to shoot straight up to the summits, with very little in the way of switchbacks, and tend to take you right up cliffs.

I've felt like that sometimes about the trails in the Daks... seemed like herd paths that eventually became trails...

However, in terms of the Whites, try various trails in the Great Gulf, Kings Ravine, Mahoosuc Notch, Ice Gulch, Huntington Ravine, Flume Slide Trail, Desolation Trail (Carrigain) etc. if you want steep and unforgiving. The difference is, I guess, that each peak in the Whites generally has a number of trails that will appeal to different levels of challenge. Many peaks also have slides, so there's another approach as well.

-Dr. Wu

 

[una_dogger]

I've felt like that sometimes about the trails in the Daks... seemed like herd paths that eventually became trails...

However, in terms of the Whites, try various trails in the Great Gulf, Kings Ravine, Mahoosuc Notch, Ice Gulch, Huntington Ravine, Flume Slide Trail, Desolation Trail (Carrigain) etc. if you want steep and unforgiving. The difference is, I guess, that each peak in the Whites generally has a number of trails that will appeal to different levels of challenge. Many peaks also have slides, so there's another approach as well.

-Dr. Wu

Mahoosuc Notch is in the Whites, Frank?? I agree Maine is similar to the Daks.

I've been itching to hike the Desolation Trail, and do alot more redlining in the Whites in general. Maybe when we do that whack to Vose Spur from Carrigan, we can ascend via Desolation. That would make for a particularly arduous and utlimately rewarding day!

 

[dr_wu002]

Mahoosuc Notch is in the Whites, Frank?? I agree Maine is similar to the Daks.

I've been itching to hike the Desolation Trail, and do alot more redlining in the Whites in general. Maybe when we do that whack to Vose Spur from Carrigan, we can ascend via Desolation. That would make for a particularly arduous and utlimately rewarding day!

A small part of the White Mountains are in Maine. This includes Mahoosucs, Baldfaces, Caribou/Speckled area.

Desolation Trail is ok. Better to do the loop... Carrigain Notch - Desolation - Signal Ridge though. It's not like the coolest trail in the world although nor is it super challenging (it's much easier than the trail up Haystack from Panther Gorge) but the walk through Carrigain Notch is nice.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Motabobo]

"The whites are better", nuff said

 

[dug]

Re: Graded trails. Many trails in the whites were built as either logging roads (either by train or cart) or horse and carraige paths to summits (Crawford, Old Bridle Path, etc.), so they weren't built for foot, but for wheeled and hooved traffic. The most beat-down trails fit this description.

There are many other trails that are more wild and scenic, and draw less of the crowds.

I have heard from two separate people, not on this board, (one has done the Winter46er as well as non-Winter46er & the same for the Whites4k -- the other has done about 3/4 of the 46ers in various seasons and all the Whites4k in various seasons) and both have made mention that the approaches are much longer in the DAKS, the trails are less well-constructed, so they always seem harder. There are isolated trails on each side that overall may differ on that opinion.

Having only skied to Marcy, I am by no means the authority on the DAKS.

Last big difference? You see more Red Sox fans in the Whites and more Yankee fans in the DAKS

 

[Kevin Rooney]

There have been a few posts re: comparing snowfalls which have differed from mine - no harm, no foul. It's not clear to me whether these posts have been based upon actual experience or reading some charts.

My comments were based on personal experience during a 3 or 4 year period when I did lots of winter hiking in both the Daks and Whites, and was frequently impressed with how much more snow there seemed to be in the Daks. Having lived in VT for about 45 years, and having watched storms track regularly from west to east, with an occasional coastal storm, yet invariably there would fresh snowfall in the Daks. When I commented on it to some of my hiking friends, most of whom were New Englanders, they said they also thought the Daks got more snow. In comparison, the snowfall at my home in VT was what I would invariably find at NH trailheads.

I've not completed the Daks in winter, so am hoping that some Winter 111ers will comment on this topic. I know a few, but only one reads this BB regularly - perhaps he'll read this thread and offer his experience.

 

[skiguy]

There have been a few posts re: comparing snowfalls which have differed from mine - no harm, no foul. It's not clear to me whether these posts have been based upon actual experience or reading some charts.

My comments were based on personal experience during a 3 or 4 year period when I did lots of winter hiking in both the Daks and Whites, and was frequently impressed with how much more snow there seemed to be in the Daks. Having lived in VT for about 45 years, and having watched storms track regularly from west to east, with an occasional coastal storm, yet invariably there would fresh snowfall in the Daks. When I commented on it to some of my hiking friends, most of whom were New Englanders, they said they also thought the Daks got more snow. In comparison, the snowfall at my home in VT was what I would invariably find at NH trailheads.

I've not completed the Daks in winter, so am hoping that some Winter 111ers will comment on this topic. I know a few, but only one reads this BB regularly - perhaps he'll read this thread and offer his experience.

I can relate to your perceptual differences as I have experiencied the same effect; which IMO also applies to the "HARDER" part of this discussion. One can split hairs when it comes to terrain features, overall milage, vertical gain,weather, above treeline exposure, has someone broken the trail before you, wether you did the hike yesterday or 20-30 years ago, and how much mud one gets up their crack among other non quantifiable variables. In the big picture I find that a given hike/climb comes down to overall conditions at the present time in which you do the hike/climb and the overall perception within that time space. Have you ever done a hike again and afterwards said..."that's alot harder than I remembered" or "that was alot easier than I remembered"?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

There have been a few posts re: comparing snowfalls which have differed from mine - no harm, no foul. It's not clear to me whether these posts have been based upon actual experience or reading some charts.

OK, I got curious and checked with NOAA. Comparing Lake Placid and Pinkham Notch (very close in elevation) mean and median yearly snowfall totals 1971 - 2000:
Lake Placid: Mean- 104.4", Median - 95.4"
Pinkham Notch: Mean - 134.7, Median - 118.4"

Whites win the Snowfall Derby

This one is pretty clear. It looks at the NOAA historical data, cites the comparison criteria (elevation), and reports the mean and median. To refute this would require citing an equally meaningful historical source with contrary data.

Tim

 

[Peakbagr]

"Have you ever done a hike again and afterwards said..."that's alot harder than I remembered" ?

...Almost every time out.

 

[DougPaul]

This one is pretty clear. It looks at the NOAA historical data, cites the comparison criteria (elevation), and reports the mean and median. To refute this would require citing an equally meaningful historical source with contrary data.

Not necessarily. Local terrain can also have a significant effect on the local precip and the amount may be different at nearby locations (to either comparison point).

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

This one is pretty clear. It looks at the NOAA historical data, cites the comparison criteria (elevation), and reports the mean and median. To refute this would require citing an equally meaningful historical source with contrary data.

Tim

With all due respect to Oldsmores, his post doesn't prove/disprove much to me. Pinkham Notch is on the windward side of a major mountain range, and there's a reason Tucks often fills up with 100'+ feet of snow. An inch of snow up on the ridge can mean avalanche danger to the east because it blows in that direction. So, spindrift alone accounts for some of Pinkham Notches accumulation.

Here's another example of wide variation in snowfall - I've seen instances when in mid-winter there's so little snow in Franconia village you could see the brown lawns. But, drive 5-10 miles into the Notch and there's so much snow they're using bucket loaders to move it. Huge difference.

As I said earlier, am hoping those with actual winter hiking experience in both areas, during the same time periods, will share their perceptions. It's not my intention to stifle discussion, but there's a big difference between looking at charts on the internet versus being able to say "Yup, been there, done that, and this was my experience".

 

[Tom Rankin]

I've not completed the Daks in winter, so am hoping that some Winter 111ers will comment on this topic. I know a few, but only one reads this BB regularly - perhaps he'll read this thread and offer his experience.

I believe there are at least 3!

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Pony up people. OldSmores put some hard data on the table. Support it or refute it. No vague statements.

Tim

 

[dr_wu002]

Pony up people. OldSmores put some hard data on the table. Support it or refute it. No vague statements.

Tim

No, he provided some data -- localized data at best, comparing two specific locations and then expanded them to represent The Whites and the ADK's. Nobody has to refute it with alternate data because what was there was misrepresented to begin with. Your statement is like me saying, "I grew up on Mars, now prove that I didn't!" The onus is on me to prove that I did.

Why don't you provide some data for us to tear apart.

-Dr. Wu

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Why don't you provide some data for us to tear apart.

I don't have any data. I have not hiked the ADKs. I have only hiked one winter in the the Whites. I am far from qualified to make any statements as to which receive more snow.

One post put up a set of data. Put up your own data. I suspect that averages kept by NOAA or other record keeping organizations are going to be a far more accurate source of data than querying any one of us for our relative experience. If I hiked the Whites the 2005-6 when there was nearly no snow (based on a 6-week XC season at Waterville), I might say "There isn't any snow in the Whites in winter." If I only hiked it last winter, I might think "Holy cow, there is a ton of snow." Being a XCier and relying on natural snow I know that year-to-year and month-to-month and week-to-week and area-to-area things vary.

So if you want to make a counter claim then post some data.

BTW, Wu, I said "some" and OldSmores said "some"... on purpose. OldSmores gave his two locations and assumption (similar elevation) for comparison. I couldn't extrapolate that to mean "for the entire Whites" and "for the entire ADKs". It's just two data points. Two more than anyone else has posted.

Tim