Wildcat pass required for hikers?

[dug]

In the end, sledding may be the final answer. But, it's now given them a reason to go back and look at all the non-lift served activity.

Troubling to hear how people just do what they believe to be correct, ramifications be damned. Even more troubling are the reports of postholes right down the middle of a ski trail .

Postholing on a hiking trail is one can of worms I won't touch. But, on a ski trail that can be downright deadly.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I've hiked the Polecat trail many times, and like any trail - hiking or skiing - it's the bare-booted hiker whose postholing tears up the trail and makes it dangerous for others. So, categorizing hikers as the good guys and sledders as the bad guys confuses the issue. If all pedestrians on the Polecat trail stayed on the edges, and used snowshoes, I doubt this issue would have ever gotten to this point. Sledding, in and of itself, has a minimal impact on the slope. I worked part-time in HS and college at Killington as a lift operator, and we'd have shovel and sledding races at the end of the day, after all the skiers were off the slopes as a way of getting down. It didn't tear up the slopes.

I'm also a skier, and I know that suddenly encountering a deep boot track creates problems. This occasionally happens when another skier falls and loses a ski(s), forcing them to posthole across a slope after it. There's nothing that can be done in these instances. But, any ski area should have the right to manage the quality of its slopes, especially if non-skiers are degrading them.

 

[DSettahr]

Escorted or Thrust into or onto a snowcat or snowmobile is just not going to happen. Maybe bring up a law enforcement officer, whose authority I will follow, but I will not follow directions of those following the directions of those imposing their unfounded authority.

Do you honestly believe that a enforcement officer is going to look kindly upon you after you've forced him or her to come all the way up the the mountain in winter to deal with your stubbornness? Forcing them to do so is a great way to get them to view you as being "uncooperative" right of the bat.

I am dumbfounded at the attitude expressed in posts in this thread, that would permit such authority to reign. I have hiked these mountains since I was a young boy. I bring my children up to these mountains to experience the wild, the backcountry and self-suffieciency that is needed in the mountains. I do not wish to purposefully disregard authority, but until there is a USFS dictate that states hikers are not permitted, I will do as I have done.

"Permit such an authority to reign" makes it sound like we're dealing with Darth Vader and the Empire, rather than a ski area.

The attitude is expressed because most of the people posting in this thread realize that taking an "I do what I want, and those with differing viewpoints can suck it" attitude is extremely unlikely to bring about a successful resolution that leaves everyone happy. If we approach this issue with the objective of having "winners" and "losers," well then who do you think is going to win? My money is on the large commercial operation that has significant funds to draw upon in their fight.

But maybe, just maybe, if we show a willingness to work with both the USFS and the ski area on this issue, we might see a willingness on their parts to do the same. By working together, it'd be a heck of a lot easier to come up with a solution that leaves everyone happy. And yes, that's going to mean cooperating with people who make decisions that you don't agree with.

Yes, you've spent a lot of time in the mountains, and it's allowed for you to build some great memories and experiences with people whom are important to you. But that doesn't entitle you to any more of a say in how these mountains are managed than anyone else. Other people value these mountains too, and they might not value them in the same way as you. I'm sure that there are people who have built memories with loved ones on the ski slopes at wildcat, memories that are for them just as important as your hiking memories are to you. I've never even climbed Wildcat, but I would like to some day, and for me, the anticipation of being able to do so is important to me. And there are millions of Americans who will never climb or ski at Wildcat, but it's important to them that as a nation, we preserve and conserve such areas so that both of those types of opportunities are available. As American citizens their opinions and views about how to manage our public spaces are just as important as yours and mine, even if they'll never even visit the Northeast.

We have these public spaces set aside for all of us, and that includes more than just hikers and mountaineers. While I'm sure that most of us (myself included) would love to live in a world where the entire White Mountain National Forest was one big wilderness area for hikers, but that just isn't going to happen. We need developed ski areas for the people who enjoy skiing on groomed trails, just like we need toll roads up mountains like Whiteface and Washington so that those who are unable to climb these peaks themselves can still experience what it's like to stand upon an alpine summit. We wouldn't want a road up every peak for sure, but it's like that saying goes- "All things in moderation."

User conflicts are a major aspect of recreation and natural resource management that resource managers have to deal with on a regular basis. In fact, some sort of dispute management is often a required component of many forestry and recreation management programs at colleges that offer them. And it's pretty much a given that if all sides are willing to work together on resolving those conflicts, those conflicts are going to be resolved a lot more quickly and much more to everyone's satisfaction.

 

[ow2010]

Well put, Brian!

 

[MichaelJ]

There was never an issue until now. OK, so Wildcat say there is now an issue with sledders. So charge anyone with a sled a user fee. Why now, all of a sudden after years of foot travel in winter, do they decide now is the time to put their foot down?

That's easy - new ownership. They only just acquired it late Fall 2010, so they had one winter to settle in and figure out what was going on, and this winter most likely decided that the situation was untenable.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I think the key issue is that some group of people, "non-skiers", are NOT keeping to the edges and are damaging the trails, making them (potentially) unsafe. It's much simpler to enforce "no foot traffic" than to pick and chose. In the 2010-11 message from Susan, she does say Wildcat has the prerogative, however, to restrict this access to exclude specific times and trails to help insure safety of the public and of Wildcat employees; Wildcat supports safe (no interference with maintenance activities) and respectful (extreme trail edge) hiking for no fee access. I think it has been abused, and we all know that it doesn't take much for one or two percent to spoil it for the other 98%+.

Tim

 

[skiguy]

I think the key issue is that some group of people, "non-skiers", are NOT keeping to the edges and are damaging the trails, making them (potentially) unsafe. It's much simpler to enforce "no foot traffic" than to pick and chose. In the 2010-11 message from Susan, she does say Wildcat has the prerogative, however, to restrict this access to exclude specific times and trails to help insure safety of the public and of Wildcat employees; Wildcat supports safe (no interference with maintenance activities) and respectful (extreme trail edge) hiking for no fee access. I think it has been abused, and we all know that it doesn't take much for one or two percent to spoil it for the other 98%+.

Tim

Great points Tim! Communication is key on this issue...and in a level of civility and positiveness which your post reflects.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

It would appear that the 'legal' / free options are:

1. Loop via the Wildcat Ridge Trail (very steep), 8.1 miles, 3150'
2. Out and back from 19MBT, 11.6 miles, 4350'

Option 2 is not a difficult hike, and doesn't require a car spot either.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

2. Out and back from 19MBT, 11.6 miles, 4350'

Option 2 is not a difficult hike, and doesn't require a car spot either.

In the not-too-distant past some people have had difficulty crossing a slide on the back-side of Wildcat. Don't know its current difficulty--it is probably a function of the snow conditions.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

In the not-too-distant past some people have had difficulty crossing a slide on the back-side of Wildcat. Don't know its current difficulty--it is probably a function of the snow conditions.

Doug

You'd have to cross it on the way out so you would have a good idea of the return. So far, I have been unimpressed with the Wildcat slide.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

You'd have to cross it on the way out so you would have a good idea of the return. So far, I have been unimpressed with the Wildcat slide.

IIRC there was an accident or near accident a few years back at the crossing.

Doug

 

[bobandgeri]

IIRC there was an accident or near accident a few years back at the crossing.

Doug

There was an accident once, but like Tim - we've crossed it many times in Summer and Winter, and have never seen any issues. There are many more spots on trails in the Whites that have a much higher risk.

Tim - are you sure of that 11.6 mile number? I seem to get 12.8 miles for an out an back.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Tim - are you sure of that 11.6 mile number? I seem to get 12.8 miles for an out an back.

12.8 is what you get when you add up the segments on the Map Adventures Map. 11.6 is what my GPS says when I take the last tracklog to D peak and double it. The map was packed away in my pack and I was too lazy to get it... until now.

Tim

 

[RoySwkr]

2. Out and back from 19MBT, 11.6 miles, 4350'

Option 2 is not a difficult hike, and doesn't require a car spot either.

Besides being ~30% longer and more gain than up&back ski trails, I do consider Option 2 to be difficult. 19MBT has some nasty sidehill made worse by Irene and brooks to cross, then up from the notch is actually 35% steeper than up E [1050/.7 vs 2150/1.9) and the dangerous slide that has led to serious injuries in the past

I have suggested to the FS that if the ski trails are closed to hiking, a new trail should be built on the N side of Thompson Brook to Wildcat Col with volunteers to build it and materials to be paid by the ski area

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

I just had this message from John who kind of initiated this discussion in the first place, so I pass it on:


Hi Ed:

I just heard from the USFS and the guy said the policy is that the ski
area is within its permit rights to charge $10 for a pass to ski or
hike their trails and use their parking lot. As for dogs they can set
whatever policy they want; he didn't know what it was although he said
most ski areas do not allow them on the trails. This is apparently
the final policy decision for this year. He said they will be looking
at other options for next year; he didn't say what but I took it not
as a ski area change but perhaps something relating to trails.

His suggestions for alternate ways to get to D are to use the ski
trail from Jackson, the Wildcat Ridge trail starting at the AMC center
and the same trail from 19 Mile Brook TH. When asked he said that
anyone can snowshoe if they are off the groomed trails.

That is what I know. I guess we'll be heading up Wildcat from the AMC
this Friday.

John

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Ed (and everyone else),

I have not gotten e-mail from Susan on an USFS decision, yet.

Tim

 

[skiguy]

His suggestions for alternate ways to get to D are to use the ski
trail from Jackson

FYI...if you are referring to the Wildcat Valley Trail....Jackson Ski Touring Foundation charges a fee to use this trail.

 

[RoySwkr]

FYI...if you are referring to the Wildcat Valley Trail....Jackson Ski Touring Foundation charges a fee to use this trail.

True, but its major disadvantages in winter are that it's much longer (can't drive to summer trailhead) and likely not broken for snowshoe use

Note that from the article below Sunapee apparently bans winter hiking even if you have a season pass (or did 4 years ago):
http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/ski-lifts-are-for-slackers

 

[David Metsky]

True, but its major disadvantages in winter are that it's much longer (can't drive to summer trailhead) and likely not broken for snowshoe use

And skiers will be pissed if you destroy the track. Assuming we had enough snow to ski that trail this winter...

 

[RoySwkr]

And skiers will be pissed if you destroy the track. Assuming we had enough snow to ski that trail this winter...

One year in the 70s Jackson was offering a free trail pass and free lift ticket to snowshoers who would pack it down for a race, of course people used bigger snowshoes then